Where do you draw the line?

Postby **majanthehun** » Wed Aug 20, 2003 10:42 am

well keep going, benu!! if i get bored you'll know. its an interesting conversation to see who allows what, to see how God handles things between different people.

Postby **Rashiir** » Wed Aug 20, 2003 11:00 am

Wha...?

Postby **Benu** » Wed Aug 20, 2003 11:35 am

Rashiir What does your Wha? Refer too?

Postby **Benu** » Wed Aug 20, 2003 12:02 pm

Well let me add some more things about where other people draw the line. Anyway most of the youth at my church have a problem with anime, well a huge problem. The biggest problem they have with it both boys and girls is the lack of clothing on the characters. The girls think it's sick and the boys start slobering. So really I feel kinda like an outsider at my church with the youth because I really have nothing in common with them really besides Anime, They don't like my music, they don't like video games, they don't like my facination with japanese culture and they don't like my geekyness either. I will continue later.

Postby **Rashiir** » Wed Aug 20, 2003 2:58 pm

My wha was because I don't understand that guy you were talking about.

Postby **Bobtheduck** » Tue Aug 26, 2003 3:34 pm

Hmm... this is where thing come down to the mark...

I believe it is possible for some people to watch nudity and not be affected. If it weren't ,there would be no doctors...

I must point out that probably every literary work contains "evil works" in them, including (or should I say "especially") the Bible. The mere including of such things isn't wrong.

Now, it comes down to what causes us to sin. I'd say that some anime are more seductive than others (not even bothering with Hentai right now) and I believe seeing someone fully clothed or overdressed can be used seductively and seeing nudity can be far from seductive. As for the intent of the director, has anyone watched an unaltered "Totoro"? There is a bath scene and rear female nudity. Yeah, that's right. Totoro. However, if anyone considers that seductive or lustfull, they probably have a few problems and need some serious counseling. I mean, in Japan Family bathing is quite common. It's just not an option for there to be a lust there. Bathing is a much more important part of life there than it is here... People hear the words "Lust of the Eyes" and equate it with seeing nudity. Some places in the world it's impossible to go very long without seeing nudity and most likely it will be the opposite sex at least SOME of the time. Lust does not mean look at. "Look at with the purpose of lusting" TO lust means to have a selfish desire; to think of yourself over someone, to want to use someone for your own purpose. Simply seeing a naked body does not make you lust. Lust has to allready be in your heart and then you have to give it room. The other side to Lust is Seduction. There are a lot of anime that are SEDUCTIVE and that is where the real danger lies.

As for violence, for people freaking out about that (coughfocusonthefamilycough) I wonder if they had even read the Bible. People really blow one little verse incredibly far out of proportion when it talks about "lovers of violence" It does NOT make you a lover of violence to enjoy a war movie or a bloody scifi movie even.

And swearing? If you're telling a story and the characters are the type to swear (IE non-christians, probably rebellious or raised where no one cares about that) then to censor the language is to be dishonest. A recent Christian movie called to end all wars shows this truth. The movie would not have been powerfull if the characters were sanitized or if the story was downplayed.

Of course, Japanese doesn't exactly have "cussing" like we have in English. Of course there is the infamous "kuso" but more often then not, the swearing in subtitles and in the dubs are imbellishments by the translating companies. Japanese language is a whole different animal than English and we can't equate our ideas to theirs...

The Same goes for Hebrew and Greek. Swearing in "bible times" was a different issue alltogether. As for what was meant by "rough speech" and it's variations is various Bible Translations, I have not a clue. However, think about this. In that time, the worst possible thing you could say to someone, worse than our "f" word, was to call someone a Dog. Read the story of Jesus and the Samaritan woman again... Read it with that knowledge. It makes ME think, i don't know about you.

As for Final Fantasy, Most of the summon characters are based on one religion or another. Doomtrain is actually based on a somewhat modern story in Japan that says that the souls of the dead go to the other side on trains. This shows up in anime and games quite frequently, and Squaresoft didn't invent it.

Shiva is hindu
Ifrit is some other religion
Quetzacotl is Aztec
Leviathon and Behemoth are from the Bible
Bahamut is... I dont' know, probably a mispronunciation of Behemoth...
Almost all of these magical beings (espers, summons, guardian forces, Aeons) are rooted in some religion, including Christianity and Judaism. Not only that, but every game is a twist on a religious story... That means that the creators merely find these religions interesting and nothing more... None of the games are directly about Christianity, but two are based on religions with Christian roots. FF6 is based on Christian Folklore (not on the Bible) and FF10 is based on something called Gnostisism, which was a cult that is starting to regain popularity. FF7 contains the average beliefs of the Cosmic Humanist, FF8 is too but in a different direction (with astral projection and time travel) FF1 is basically old Japanese beliefs and the others have their roots too. So, with that info, you can make your own decission. For myself, I don't think the Square-enix staff believe in any of the religions they mention in their games. I think they just consider them "interesting stories" much the way many Christians I know consider Greek Myths "interesting Stories" and I feel the same way. I'll play the FF games because they are interesting, and i know that whatever they say in them is based on something not compatible with what I believe, and therefore I should not go too deeply into any of it.

Postby **Rashiir** » Tue Aug 26, 2003 6:45 pm

The Same goes for Hebrew and Greek. Swearing in "bible times" was a different issue alltogether. As for what was meant by "rough speech" and it's variations is various Bible Translations, I have not a clue. However, think about this. In that time, the worst possible thing you could say to someone, worse than our "f" word, was to call someone a Dog. Read the story of Jesus and the Samaritan woman again... Read it with that knowledge. It makes ME think, i don't know about you.

I didn't read it again, but I thought about it, and remembered what she called herself. Woah.

And I agree about the nudity thing. Sometimes things that don't "show anything" are a whole lot more suggestive/seductive/lustfull than complete nudity. I mean think about it, which is more lustful, a Christina Aguilera music video, or the Sistine Chapel?

P.S. Re-read the section...Jesus calls her that...Woah.

First, Ban all the Trolls. . . · Postby **MillyFan** » Thu Aug 28, 2003 4:34 pm

As long as you aren't convicted there's nothing wrong with it for you, IMHO -^.^-

As an example, I love Cowboy Bebop, it's one of my favorite series. I'm not convicted over the cough, ahem. . .Fayeservice because I'm female and don't find it enticing. Rather, I find it annoying. Therefore, I'm not sinning in watching the anime. However, I wouldn't recommend it to someone who either would be enticed or highly offended by it, and any time I talk about Bebop in depth I warn people that it *does* have that particular content.

Postby **Michael** » Thu Aug 28, 2003 5:31 pm

I find Fayeservice annoying to. (And I'm a guy)

Honestly, I own a copy of Grand Theft Auto III.
If you believe the stuff that happens in that game is like real life, then you've got a serious problem.

If you can look at porn and not be aurosed by it then your not sinning. (And you probably wouldn't be looking at it anyway) But there aren't that many Christians out there that can do that. If you find you like the way Faye looks to much; Then you better stop watching CB until she looks like any other Anime character.

It's an internal problem. Just saying porn should be abolished won't keep you from looking at it. Porn is just evidence of a crime. Hentai is a perversion of art.

Postby **shooraijin** » Thu Aug 28, 2003 6:34 pm

> If you can look at porn and not be aurosed by it then your not sinning.

Even if we take this to be true (for the purposes of argument), what about encouraging the immoral activities of those producing it, not to mention the stumbling block it presents to those Christians who cannot dissociate themselves from being aroused by it?

First, Ban all the Trolls. . . · Postby **MillyFan** » Thu Aug 28, 2003 7:05 pm

Agreed with shoorajin -^.^-

Postby **MasterDias** » Thu Aug 28, 2003 7:33 pm

Bobtheduck wrote:Bahamut is... I dont' know, probably a mispronunciation of Behemoth...

Actually, Bahamut was The King of Dragons or something or other from Norse mythology. Odin was also Norse...

Even if we take this to be true (for the purposes of argument), what about encouraging the immoral activities of those producing it, not to mention the stumbling block it presents to those Christians who cannot dissociate themselves from being aroused by it?

True, and the fact that it is readily available to any who have access to the internet makes the whole thing worse. Before the internet, it was harder to get.

Postby **Benu** » Thu Aug 28, 2003 8:48 pm

Man!! You wont belive the arguments that I have with my (so Called) Friends at church that don't like anime over the nudity and fanservice issues that pop up in anime. But they have problems with that in real life already but it just bugs me too hang around with them. They see a pretty girl and they go crazy. I'm a guy but I don't join along in lusting and talking like a pervert like they do. But they tell me "Do you even like girls" to put it lightly. Gee that bugs me so much!! Just because I respect girls doesn't mean I'm Gay! I really don't understand some of these guys! But really I'm not bothered by nudity or fanservice, but I do find it annoying in anime when it is done in bad taste and destroys a whole show! But I can go on about this subject for days!!!

Postby **Bobtheduck** » Thu Aug 28, 2003 11:40 pm

Benu wrote:Man!! You wont belive the arguments that I have with my (so Called) Friends at church that don't like anime over the nudity and fanservice issues that pop up in anime. But they have problems with that in real life already but it just bugs me too hang around with them. They see a pretty girl and they go crazy. I'm a guy but I don't join along in lusting and talking like a pervert like they do.

Wow... you have said essentially what I was trying to say all the time... well, sorta...

Postby **LorentzForce** » Thu Aug 28, 2003 11:51 pm

tell them how they would feel if a group of gay guys came up to one of them and started perverted comments about them.

Postby **Master Kenzo** » Fri Aug 29, 2003 9:04 am

As I am reading this thread, my mother is asking me to throw out Castle in the Sky...which I didn't have a problem with, and which I bought myself...but following what you guys said, *chucks*

Thanks guys, you saved a lot of argument.

Postby **Michael** » Fri Aug 29, 2003 1:50 pm

>what about encouraging the immoral activities of those producing it,<

That's why I said you probably wouldn't be looking at it.

>not to mention the stumbling block it presents to those Christians who cannot dissociate themselves from being aroused by it?<

Agreed: It's better to cut off your right arm than being cast into Hell whole.
My point was that it's a problem inside the Christian.
(Matthew 5:28)

First, Ban all the Trolls. . . · Postby **MillyFan** » Fri Aug 29, 2003 1:55 pm

MK, what is her problem with Castle In The Sky?

Postby **firestorm** » Fri Aug 29, 2003 2:54 pm

I know I'm going back to the beginning of the thread here but listen Iesu_no_Senshi, One time during one of my pastor's messages he read this verse I remember (sort of). I don't remember what it said exactly but I do remember what It meant. It said that in disputable matters such as the question you asked about, he does not hold to one specific rule for all of us, but instead holds to what each of us believes about that subject. So on this subject, don't pay attention to any one of the Christian friends you meet at school, because what their views of the subject is might be different then yours. Do what you believe is right. You must set your own line at where it stops. We all must.

Postby **Bobtheduck** » Mon Sep 01, 2003 12:06 pm

I wonder what problem someone could seriously have with a ghibli movie if they'd actually sit down and watch it...

Well, I could see something in the mythology aspect, but there is none of the standard things that get people riled... Violence (except Mononoke), Sex, And language. But, I suppose the shinto backing to most of the movies (from what I've seen except kiki which is european folklore behind witches (and not reality) and Grave of the Fireflies to which there is no mythology behind at all) is enough to scare people off...

I get bugged when people watch something like an old greek mythology movie and then are upset by something like that... Or even, to be honest, when they watch modern day mythology at work (evolution and humanism) in movies like "Jurassic Park" if you watch Jurassic park with fondness, you have no right to be upset with Spirited away or any of the Ghibli movies.

Postby **Technomancer** » Mon Sep 01, 2003 12:45 pm

I honestly cannot understand the reactions of some parents. Yes, there is such a thing as age appropriateness, but it means that one not only restricts some materials for younger viewers/readers, but encourages the older ones to seek broader horizons. Sooner or later, children grow up and have to come to terms with the rest of the world. It is a parent's duty in the end, to raise a child to adulthood, with everything that entails. This means giving them room to grow as their own persons; making choices not out of fear or guilt, but out of informed moral conviction.

What do these parents do when their children attend university? They will have to deal with some things they might rather not. They will be required to read and to understand materials they might disagree with, at least if the school is at all worthy of the title 'university'.

At least such is my belief, and it was how I was raised. Hell, when I was in elementary school, my parents practically ordered me to read 'Catcher in the Rye' and 'Cannery Row' and the like.

First, Ban all the Trolls. . . · Postby **MillyFan** » Mon Sep 01, 2003 5:29 pm

LOL, you reminded me of something kind of funny. In a discussion at a Christian board I went to a long time ago (the Christianity.com forums, then known as ChristianBBS), some parents were discussing the futures of their teens, and one person's post would have been funny if it wasn't so scary.

The parents had homeschooled and were planning to all the way to college. Now, that in itself I didn't mind-I was homeschooled myself-but their reason for it was what bothered me. It was something like "because we don't want him to be polluted by the world." Naturally, they only allowed him certain Christian books and Christian music as well. . .

Anyway, these same people planned to send their son to an exclusively Christian college, to have him court someone being raised in a similarly strict manner, and their whole idea seemed to center around "keeping him safe and pure."

It's scary because of what will happen when this person enters the "real world." Even if he gets a career in Christian ministry, he will sometime have to interact with people who disagree with either his strict view of the faith or with Christianity in its entirety.

As someone who has seen people like this post on messageboards, I've seen this kind of culture shock go two ways too often:

Some people are driven further back into their shells and spend their days whining about how horrible everything is and berating others for the slightest disagreement with their "Only True Christian Stance." If you want to see something like this, go hang out at BaptistBoards or Rapture Ready for a while and you'll find plenty of it.

Others leave the faith altogether, thinking that they must choose between "Christianity" and a full, normal life involving things like maturity, a "real" education, a job that actually pays well, interaction with others, and so on. . .not realizing that Christianity didn't forbid them from growing up, from learning, from entering a line of work outside "ministry," or from interacting with others as a normal human being-their closed culture did.

It's possible for it to go different ways, for someone to differentiate between "the rules" and their faith even when it's all so intertwined and to actually come from the experience a stronger person and a stronger Christian-but it's a rare sight to see.

Postby **Michael** » Mon Sep 01, 2003 6:18 pm

We are to be in the world but not of it.

Postby **Benu** » Mon Sep 01, 2003 10:20 pm

Tell it like it is MillyFan!!

This is what my mom says all the time. Now that I'm 18 too she really tells me this all the time! Anyway I totally agree my pastors sons are so sheltered they are shocked by the real world and they don't know how to deal with! I good freinds with his sons but they got a big problem with anime (the they think it's porn mentality) that I really can't stand to be around them anymore much less even just hang out because they are shocked by everything and they have to relate everything to sex!!! One of them can't even look at normal girls with out saying nasty things and lusting! But he's always telling me I shouldn't watch anime because it's porn and that I'm gonna have problems with thoughts and lusting! :forehead:

Uhh...yea sure? Then if they hear a cuss word they freak but yet they always say what the "F" for everything they don't say the word they just say F. I don't get that either? I thank God I can deal with the real world but that I'm also not easily tempted by things. But my mom was sheltering me alot when I was younger but now she is not like that anymore now that I'm older and she is more open to things now than she was before! I thank God for that too because I thought with how she was with me before that I was not going to be able to do nothing! Anyway funny thing happend today too my parents took me to Anime Gamers today, I wanted to check it out too see what it was all about but I was kinda scared because my mom was still kinda iffy about anime because most people at my church say it's porn or it's evil! She even became more iffy about anime after this guy at my church preached on Dragon Ball and Pokemon and how it's evil and they get kids to worship Satan and stuff! But I guess My mom is Open too it now but I have explained to her before that Japanese culture is different in many ways thats why there are these things in anime and manga. Anyway she was like happy and draging me around the store saying look at this come over here wow check this out! She kept giving me like all the anime flyers and stuff and just it was odd! But hey it's another blessing! :jump:

Postby **Technomancer** » Tue Sep 02, 2003 9:12 am

I've seen RR (or at least as much of it as I could stomach). I cannot accept the sort of pseudo-Manichean world-view that they peddle. Nor can I ever accept the related idea of Christian separatism that would see us putting a wall between ourselves and the rest of the human race.

The church may be in the world, but one can also say that the world is in the church.

First, Ban all the Trolls. . . · Postby **MillyFan** » Tue Sep 02, 2003 1:40 pm

Technomancer wrote:I've seen RR (or at least as much of it as I could stomach). I cannot accept the sort of pseudo-Manichean world-view that they peddle. Nor can I ever accept the related idea of Christian separatism that would see us putting a wall between ourselves and the rest of the human race.

The church may be in the world, but one can also say that the world is in the church.

I so totally agree with you about RR. I once registered there as "otakulady" or something similar, basically requested some evidence for people's assertions and asked people to calm down, to stop the name-calling and anger for a little while. . .

Needless to say, it didn't work very well, and sad to say I finally left out of frustration. There's only so much one can do, and although I'm technically a pretribulationist still, RR's brand of fearful, angry pretrib is something I no more want than a bowl of brussels sprouts.

Postby **Michael** » Tue Sep 02, 2003 3:12 pm

<I once registered there as "otakulady" or something similar, basically requested some evidence for people's assertions and asked people to calm down, to stop the name-calling and anger for a little while. . .>

They always have someone to yell at, don't they?

First, Ban all the Trolls. . . · Postby **MillyFan** » Tue Sep 02, 2003 3:18 pm

Um, first of all, who is this directed at? Secondly, it's a baseless and insulting comment no matter to whom it is directed. ^sigh^

Postby **Michael** » Tue Sep 02, 2003 3:37 pm

Eh? I didn't mean it as an insult. On second thought; Maybe I should keep my mouth shut.

Postby **Technomancer** » Wed Sep 03, 2003 9:28 am

Naturally, they only allowed him certain Christian books and Christian music as well. . .

That's a shame really, to cut oneself off from the great richness of human culture- 'the great conversation' as Neil Postman put it. To see only a narrow slice of the world, and even then only from one perspective. I prefer to think that it is imperative for the disparate elements in society to keep talking to one another, to continue seeking understanding rather than to withdraw into mutually hostile camps.

Where do you draw the line?

Rock On MillyFan!!!!

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