Possibly Leaving My Church

[Xeno]

I've been tossing and turning in bed for the last two or three hours and I simply CANNOT go to sleep, I'm thinking it's maybe because I can't get this out of my head, so I'm gonna see if I can empty it out here.

To start things off, I'm considering possibly leaving my church organization, not leaving Christ.


For those of you who don't know, the church organization I belong to is the UPCI (United Pentecostal Church International), it's the predominant Oneness believing church on the planet and it's the only church I've ever known. My mother's parents were Pentecostals and so was she. My mother left church completely when she was 18 and then came back 17 years later when I was 11 years old (I'm 24 now).

Over the last approximate year I've been feeling stunted in my spiritual growth. I've not been feeling His Spirit in the same way and things have been distant. At first I chalked it up to Him preparing me for the move that occurred back in October when I went from Kentucky/Tennessee to Oklahoma, and when I first got here I did feel refreshed at first, but now things are starting to settle back into how they were. I'm feeling distant and disconnected not just with God but with those around me, and I feel stagnant.

Now part of this I'm sure has to do with the fact that I need to be praying and reading my Bible more, I'll own up to that fact and admit that I don't do it nearly enough...it's something I'm working on. However, another thing I'm finding issue with is the focus on standards in the UPC. I mentioned this once already in another thread and I've talked some about this with Okami in the chat, but while I understand the reason for having standards, I don't see them as being the end-all be-all to getting into Heaven.

Just because a woman cuts her hair or wears pants isn't going to doom her to eternal hellfire, or at least I'm not seeing anything that indicates it would. I get the idea behind gender distinction, but somethings are just taken to the absolute extreme. Like my buddy claiming that it's not a woman's place to be a police officer or a military service member because it requires them to wear pants thus blurring the gender distinction. Really? REALLY? Do people honestly think God cares that much about the fact that a woman is trotting around in a pair of government issue pants so that she can serve her community/country? Is He really going to send her to Hell for that if she's done everything else the Bible states she must in order to enter the Kingdom?

And then there are other things that are purely about what other people will think. Here is a list of some of the things we're not supposed to do: go to the theatre, go to sporting events, go to public swimming areas, male and females be alone together, go to concerts, have friends that aren't also Pentecostal, and the list goes on.
Note: A number of the things we're not allowed to do I don't care to do anyway, so this isn't out of some misplaced desire to do things that have been witheld from me.

Being separate from the world to avoid temptation is one thing, forbidding things for the sake of appearing holy is something completely different. I'm frankly getting tired of it, and I'm starting to feel that the focus is so much on these things that it's hard to grow spiritually unless you're meeting all these requirements. I've been told before that the UPC is sectarian and legalist, and I've always denied it and ignored the fact, but it's becoming more and more apparent to me now.

It's actually quite heartbreaking and I'm kind of scared. I'm considering leaving something that has been so ingrained in my life for 13 years that I don't know how else to live. Has anyone else ever been in this kind of situation? If so what did you do?

[Atria35]

I wish I could offer some advice. However, I have never been a part of a church myself, and so have never faced this particular problem. I have a friend who is Pentacostal, and I have discussed her faith with her since it is so very different from what I'm familiar with. She's very strong in her faith, and loves her church very much. I realized, though, when she was going through a period of talking to me (with the hope of getting me to go to her church) that I could never agree with the Pentacostal interpretation of the Bible- it was too legalistic, and the things that it was legalistic about seemed completely random and very, very harsh. The things you stated about appearing evil- I realized there was no way that you could avoid the appearance of evil to everyone. It's impossible.

Of course, my other big reason behind not feeling comfortable was because when everyone was chanting and speaking in tongues and praying, it hit a rhythm and tone and pitch that triggers hypnosis in me, and I did not want to be hypnotized into any belief or into thinking I was experiencing God. However, that's another matter entirely.

[ShiroiHikari]

If you disagree so vehemently with your church's teachings, then it's probably time for you to move on. Staying will probably just make you frustrated and bitter. It's hard to let go of familiar things-- believe me, I know. But sometimes it's for the best. Familiarity is comforting and feels safe but it's not always what's best for us.

As for "avoiding the appearance of evil": We cannot control what other people think of us; we can only influence what they think of us, and we can only do that to a certain extent. Last time I checked, there's nothing in the Bible that states we have to be perceived as holy by every single person we meet in order to attain holiness. If that were the case, even Jesus Christ would not be holy enough, because...look at what people thought of him!

[ClosetOtaku]

When I was 20, I left the Catholic Church. My father was a devout Catholic to the day of his death, and I have no doubt in my mind that he was saved and lived each day as a servant of Jesus Christ.

Nevertheless, when I began reading the Bible for myself, I realized I could not agree with some of the doctrines that the Catholic Church considers as core to their faith. These were not so miuch 'dress this way' or 'eat this and not that', but more along the lines of mortal and venial sins, the granting of indulgences (still a practice), veneration of objects, and so on.

I sat down with my parish priest to discuss my concerns. He was somewhat patronizing and gave me a book (not the Bible) to read that explained Catholic beliefs and sent me off with a "you'll grow out of this phase" sort of farewell.

I left and never returned.

The old Catholic faith would probably consider me damned, as I have not gone to Confession in decades and yet continue to receive communion (I never abandoned the doctrine of transubstantiation, but let's save that for another discussion). That has little effect on me, as I consider Jesus to be my savior, and not my doctrinal beliefs.

I think Paul is quite clear on issues which continue to divide the various Christian denominations -- if you wish to do certain things that are clearly not forbidden by Scripture, you are certainly allowed and able; if you find these to be a stumbling block for less mature Christians, you are not to flaunt your freedom.

If you find the conventions of your particular church to be untenable, I believe you can leave in peace, knowing that you may be back, or you may not be. I personally have never ruled out going back to the Catholic faith, but I don't think it likely. Catholic doctrine would have to change substantially, and I don't think that will happen.

You are called to freedom in Christ, not conformity to man-made rules. Your salvation is assured by faith, not works, and the works that prove your faith exists have little to do with going to concerts and wearing pants -- you are to feed the hungry, clothe the naked, visit the sick and imprisoned, look after widows and orphans in their distress, pray for your enemies, love God above all else, and to love your neighbor as yourself.

That's my experience, and your mileage will vary, but I pray you continue to ask questions and, when the time comes, have the courage and the strength to pursue the course of action you choose.

[Yamamaya]

I have a friend who used to be part of the Apostalic Church. He described many of the standards you are mentioning and all the problems he had with them.

IMO, if the standards of your church bother you a lot, I would look into other UPCI churches in the area to see if they all hold with equal severity all of those standards.

Regardless, spirtually, it's probably best for you to look into other churches. You can't grow spirtually very well in a place that presents doctrines that you find wrong or unBiblical, especially when those things create a legalistic atmosphere.

[Xeno]

IMO, if the standards of your church bother you a lot, I would look into other UPCI churches in the area to see if they all hold with equal severity all of those standards.

Well I didn't grow up in this specific church. I've attended several UPC churches in different states. Each with a slightly different level of legalism, but they all had it. I've joined an online support group of people who have left and are thinking about leaving the UPC and I'm finding a lot of strength within them, but its still very hard not to second guess myself in this since it's something that is so ingrained into my thought processes.

[TheMewster]

I personally refuse to be associated with any denomination. My idea for you is to pray and try out many different denominations to see which one God calls you to. Remember that comfort usually has little to do with most things, but if the doctrine conteabts with the Bible you need to GET OUTTA THERE!!! I prayed for you. God bless!

[Yamamaya]

Well I didn't grow up in this specific church. I've attended several UPC churches in different states. Each with a slightly different level of legalism, but they all had it. I've joined an online support group of people who have left and are thinking about leaving the UPC and I'm finding a lot of strength within them, but its still very hard not to second guess myself in this since it's something that is so ingrained into my thought processes.

Are you considering joining another charismatic church? One of my friends goes to a charismatic church that doesn't define itself as Pentecostal from what I know. I didn't notice there being as strict standards in his church than in others.

I probably couldn't become a charismatic as the whole speaking in tongues doctrine just doesn't sit well with me. I don't judge others who do participate in it though.

[Xeno]

Are you considering joining another charismatic church? One of my friends goes to a charismatic church that doesn't define itself as Pentecostal from what I know. I didn't notice there being as strict standards in his church than in others.

I probably couldn't become a charismatic as the whole speaking in tongues doctrine just doesn't sit well with me. I don't judge others who do participate in it though.

The required speaking in tongues doctrine is something I've begun to question as well. It's shocking, over the last couple of days what started as question a few things as snowballed into nearly questioning the entire foundation of what the UPC doctrinally believe. I've found numerous resources pointing out blatant misinterpretations of the Bible by the UPC to enforce rules or make up doctrines such as the requirement of speaking in tongues for salvation that just isn't there. So if I do leave, I won't be actively seeking a charismatic church. I'll probably look for a non-denominational church that is focused on developing a real personal relationship with our Lord but that also focuses on seeking to aid those in the community who are lost.

That's another major issue I find in the UPC. We often talk about seeking the lost in the world, but we have hardly any kind of outreach program. I'm not in any kind of position to establish such a thing (one because of the question I'm doing now and two because my job precludes me from being actively involved in such a thing), but while we talk about reaching the lost in our city I don't see the church actually making an effort to do it. I do see a lot of the non-denominational church going out and canvassing the city, reaching for the lost and hungry, trying to win and save souls and show them the love of Christ.

[Okami]

It's been wonderful talking to you and discussing some of these issues, Xeno. I can honestly say that I've never had a full opportunity to discuss some of the things that we've tossed in the air with those I know that are Pentecostal, so that's been pretty awesome to me. In the very least, while not necessarily seeing eye to eye, not tearing one another limb for limb on every theological bit.

I'll stick by my regular disposition, that focusing on the contextual Biblical story is key. For doctrinal issues, this suggests going through each point verse-by-verse and getting a feel for what the text around the verses are saying. From there it's a bit easier to see different interpretations as compared to twisted Scripture.

Prayfully consider your options. You've already noted that there's a lot of talk without much action in your church, as well as things you're unsure of, Scripturally. The quick conclusion to be made is a want for a church that does ministry in the community (and probably also supports outside missions/overseas mission) and that preaches Biblical truths without twisting the Scripture to be those truths, taking the stories and making them relevant to today, but showing their contextual importance in the bigger picture.

Just keep us in the loop, mkay?

[MrKrillz0r]

In all honesty it sounds like your better of with another church. Dress codes and all that stuff is not from God and shouldn't be a part of the church, its in my opinion against what Jesus taught us. So if you ask me, find a church which is focused on Jesus and not on outer appearance and speaking in tongues or whatever.. ;p

[TheMewster]

I second Mr. Krillz0r. From what I heard on this thread you need to find another church. I go to a Church of Christ. Maybe find one in that area...?

[Xeno]

Just a slight non-update. Thanks for the continued posts (and hopefully prayers) of you all. I have been looking into different churches via websites but I've not been able to visit any of them personally. As I previously stated, I've joined an online support group of people who have left or are considering leaving the movement of which I'm a part of and I'm finding a great deal of strength there, even though most of my activity is just in reading the posts and topics of the other members.

Another obstacle I'm going to have to overcome at my current church, as small as it might seem, is the fact that I'm in charge of our media ministry. I just recently took over it, so it's not like I'm the central hub of something, but the fact remains that the guy who was running it is trying to get out of the game as quickly as possible and pass the torch along. My questioning of core doctrinal beliefs doesn't allow me to in good conscience be able to continue to lead any ministry (and I do consider media production a ministry) in the church. I've just got to figure out how to relay this to my pastor.

My current pastor has shown no signs that would lead me to believe he would have an angry outburst, or condemn me for questioning the doctrinal beliefs of the organization, but my previous one back in KY would have done so immediately, and it's a fear that I have trouble shaking. I suppose I won't know what he will do until I take this to him. Please pray that I can find the strength to approach him about this and discuss it with him maturely.

Addition: There is also the fact that people at my current church (namely the assistant pastor) know people at my old church (namely the associate pastor), which means that if I do leave, people there will find out, and I'm sure it won't take long. And then the "backslider!" label will be applied along with the constant questioning of what led me "astray" and that I need to "come back home" and stop "listening to the devil's lies" and so on and so forth. This is going to be an interesting journey if I do what I think I'm going to do.

[Atria35]

I'm sorry to hear you're having trouble. I'll definitely be praying. It saddens me to hear how you'll most likely be treated when this gets out- it seems sad and illogical to treat anyone that way when they (assumedly) want you to come back. That behaviour can only drive someone further away.

I'm sure that things will work out, somehow. I suppose the first step is finding someone else to take over the media ministry? You could start training/helping them do it before talking to your pastor- that way they aren't left in the lurch.

[K. Ayato]

I know it's tough, but you can't let the "what-ifs" stop you from doing what you feel is the right thing. Gonna be blunt here, but if they spread gossip and "backsliding" rumors to your former pastor, that's their problem. You can't control how they'll react, but you can do your best and part on good terms and with a clean conscience. Hope it all works out in the end .

[Xeno]

Posting a message in here that I placed last night on the support group I've mentioned a few times before:

"So I've still not left my church. I know it probably seems like I'm dragging my
feet on this, and maybe I am, but I'm trying to make sure I'm making the
absolute right decision here. Tonight at our "bible study" service the assistant
pastor gave a sermon on the "importance of doctrine."

Now, he didn't actually go into any specific doctrine aside from quickly hitting
on the "necessary" belief in oneness. Outside of that he pretty much skirted
right around stomping on actual doctrinal issues without stepping into them.
Several times he mentioned that God can allow a deception to come upon those who
don't have a true love for the Word in their hearts and they can be led away
while thinking they are following the truth of God's Word. He also mentioned the
"relaxing of standards" and "accepting things we never would have allowed
before" when we allow doubts about the doctrine (which is of course touted as
Jesus' and the apostle's teachings) to creep in and erode how we see things.
That it makes us start to accept everything and be come these willy-nilly
"everyone makes it to heaven" believing universalists.

Right near the end he mentioned Romans 16:17:
"Now I beseech you, brethren, mark them which cause divisions and offences
contrary to the doctrine which ye have learned; and avoid them."
I had been planning on talking to a friend of mine at the church about some of
the doubts and questions I've been having because I felt that if anyone there
could possibly understand it would be him, but after this was brought up and the
assistant pastor basically said that it means to not be around people who would
question the teachings of "the apostle's doctrine."

Of course he told us to study our Bibles to prove what he said was true, but as
always it's with the intent that we'll read what he's pointed out with the same
understanding and interpretation that he has.

At the end of the message he said something that I felt I could completely agree
with, which was that we are to adhere to the teaching of Jesus and the apostles
and not to the dogmatic belief structures of a church organization, the UPCI
included. Yet he had earlier in the message said that the UPCI was the
organization that hadn't watered down those very beliefs.

So, why am I having second thoughts? Well because before he gave his message I
told God that I needed something tonight because I needed to make a decision
soon. And that the message I got tonight would heavily influence the decision I
made. The message I got was that I need to follow the doctrine of Jesus and the
apostles, which I already knew, what I was told is that the apostolic church
does this. What they didn't do is outline how they do that exactly and now I'm
afraid that if I leave I'll have made a terrible mistake by not riding this
thing out a bit longer."

I've gotten some replies on that support group that have been very helpful, and I'm very glad I've found it. They're gracious and very Christian, unlike a lot of people that I've come across who have left the organization I'm currently in who ended up leaving Christ completely and are ugly towards other people who won't just up and leave. Just figured this was something I should share in here as well since this is a journey I announced here first.

[Xeno]

Well this has finally come to an end. I decided to leave. I sent an email to the one guy who I think would understand the situation, and he replied back stating he wouldn't shun me (much to my relief) but he did want to get together some time soon just to hear me out about what's going on (stated he wouldn't try to convince me to stay/come back though...and I believe him).

It's been a little over a week since I last posted and in that time frame I've been leaning more and more towards this direction, but last night I had a text message exchange that I guess finally was the straw that broke the camel's back. I'm not entirely sure of the persons intentions, but they came across as trying to guilt trip me because I miss so much church because of my job. My schedule is rotational, it's 8 days on, 4 days off, 7 days on, 2 days off, repeat, the hours are 3pm-11pm (a straight-8 shift). I tend to work quite a bit of overtime as well, which makes my hours 3pm-3am. Thusly I miss most evening services and if I have overtime on a Saturday night/Sunday morning I usually end up sleeping through Sunday morning service as well. The texts I got seemed to be very pointed, one outright stated that I worked too much because I work in excess of 40 hours an week. When asked if we were hiring people I told the person we were understaffed and are needing approximately 14 people, they then asked if I was going to quit working overtime once we were up to staff levels (the answer to which was no....I make a lot of money on overtime which I need for bills, I don't /enjoy/ spending time at work). By the time the conversation was over I was left with a sense that they were upset that I hadn't been guilted about missing regular church services and extra services like district/regional camp meetings and such (which the latter I never attend anyways for other reasons).

It seemed like at that point I decided it was just time to finally move on. And a little later in the CAA chat I mentioned leaving, but left off the possibly, and just said that I was leaving, and I felt like a huge weight had come off my shoulders. At that point I knew that it was right and it was time. So next Sunday I plan on going with my grandmother, aunt, and cousin to their Methodist church, I don't know that I agree with all the doctrines of the UMC, but at least it's somewhere else to start off with and we'll see where the Lord leads me. I ask that you all continue to keep me in your prayers as I head down this path.

[thoughtsarefree]

hi. I really feel for you when I read your post. It's really hard to leave something that we have passionately believed in. In my case, I was born and raised Catholic, became atheist and communist in college then decided to become agnostic. It was only when I decided to follow Christ that I found my joy.

I'm glad that Christ has unburdened you of this problem. I really believe that the community of believers is there to help us in our walk with God. But they are not perfect. That's why our organization, pastor, or families are not our masters. Only God is our Master. If we follow our church's teachings, but have doubts that we are following Christ while we do, then that doesn't help our Christian walk at all. Paul tells us in Romans 14:23 that everything that does not come from faith is sin. If you ever face condemnation because of your decision, I am sure that Jesus will keep you strong. The whole of Romans 14 actually highlights the attitude Christians should take when confronted with disputable matters such as the church doctrines you mentioned. I read it when i am disheartened after reading "Christian" forums with so many heated arguments regarding doctrine.

When I decided to focus on my relationship with Jesus instead of religion and tradition, i felt so free. I pray that you will also find this freedom and joy in Christ as you make that transition in your life. I pray that God will bless your quiet time and give you wisdom and discernment in reading the Bible and making decisions. I pray that He will continue to surround you with Christian friends and that His grace will cover you. All this, in Jesus name..amen and amen!

[Furen]

Well Xeno, it's good you have made your decision, though now comes time to choose a church for yourself, whether it be the one you attend next Sunday or if it's one you'll find in many many Sundays from now.

Then again, there's always tv church XD