Legend of Zelda Hyrule Geography

[josh_manga]

Hey, not sure if this one's been brought up somewhere here already, CAA could do with a good search option. Anyway, it's a topic i saw on another site recently, and i've seen it before elsewhere and seem to keep coming back to: Why does Hyrule keep changing in each game???

Here's the link to the forum thread that caught my attention: http://www.zeldadungeon.net/2010/05/hyrule-geography-and-cartography/

Well, besides the obvious design aspect that it needs to be different for each game to be original and present different challenges, it's fun to look at "logical" in-game reasons for why the world might change.

I'm going to look at it from the MC>OoT>TP>LttP>LoZ timeline. Why? Because of the degradation of the Temple of Time, and the statement at the end of LttP that says "and the Master Sword sleeps again... FOREVER!" If this is true, then TP can't come after LttP, but LoZ can, since it makes no mention of the Master Sword. About the Temple of Time; in OoT it is a whole building, in TP it is ruines, and in LttP it is completely gone except for the Sword's Pedestal.
Somewhere in there is the time split of adult timeline and child timeline that occurs in OoT, but i'm going to follow the Adult Timeline, and ignore the rest for now.

In another forum i visited, the OP had circled key landmarks on the maps for Ocarina of Time and Link to the Past, and stated that if you tilted one of them, the landmarks would line up. Someone responded in that forum that you don't need to tilt the map, that landmarks can shift and change, which is true.... but if you do it becomes much clearer. Castles can be destroyed and rebuilt, rivers can change course, lakes can dry up, but mountains.... Those don't typically move, not whole mountain ranges. So, i look to Death Mountain, Lake Hylia, and the Gerudo Desert as my main landmarks, because those are least likely to move in my opinion.

Ok, my view on Hyrule Geography; we all know that the developers can do whatever they want, so we’ll ignore deus ex machina style geography as the explanation for the time being. This leaves us firmly in the realm of fanbase theoretics, freeing us from the grip of the developers’ rationale.

We all know that Hyrule is a magical world, fertile, thriving, and diverse. Touched directly by the hands of the gods, and left to be ruled by its inhabitants with the power of the Triforce and other magical sources. The Kingdom of Hyrule specifically seems to be particularly well endowed with the graces of the gods, else it would not be so envious by people such as Ganondorf. As a part of that magic, I would say that the land of Hyrule has a natural ability to heal and regrow itself. The Lost Woods may be a part of that, hence it keeps moving from place to place, healing the world with its magical growth. Think about it, in the span of a mere 100 years the Lost Woods can move from one place to another between the times that the different Links encounter them.

Now, solid landmarks. I’ve always assumed that Death Mountain was in the north. It’s in the north in Legend of Zelda, it’s there in LttP, it’s there in OoT. Not always in the center of north on the map, mind you, but always on the north side of the map. Now, you may think that Death Mountain is not in Minish Cap (MC) but at the top of Mount Crenel you can find two twin rocks jutting out from the top plateau, resembling Spectacle Rock as found in LoZ. In LttP, Spectacle Rock is co-joined, not separated into two jutting rocks, and in OoT it’s in the crater itself. I haven’t found it in TP yet. Now, I’ve always thought it strange that a mountain would just be named Death Mountain, but it made sense that in LttP there would be a decree from the king that people shouldn’t go up there. It’s dangerous! It has exactly the same hazards as Mount Crenel, so I assume that at one point one too many people went up Mt. Crenel and died so they changed the name and the king put up the decree not to go up there. Either that or the Gorons moved in and declared war (as they sometimes do). Now the only problem comes with TP, where Dm is in the east instead of the north (Gamecube version, not Wii version, as the Wii got flipped I view Gamecube as the proper map). I think that the map just got put on its side for this one. All the landmarks are where they should be, but the perspective of them was drawn wrong. Looking at the map for TP, there is a compass pointing to the Zora’s Domain as being in the North, which would place Ordon in the south, but as I stated before, Death Mountain isn’t always center of north on the map, but it is always north. Thing is, if we look at the map for LoZ 2 the Adventure of Link, we can find the kingdom of Hyrule that Link explores in LoZ, complete with the lakes, the cemetery, and Specacle Rock, but it’s in the south parts of the greater kingdom of Hyrule. There’s nothing wrong with the new Zora’s Domain being further north than Death Mountain as there is obviously more to the world than just the Kingdom of Hyrule, and the Zora’s Domain is obviously not a part of that Kingdom.

The source of the river is in the east. It’s to the east of DM (Death Mountain) in LoZ, it’s there in LttP, and it’s there in OoT. It’s even there in MC. In TP the source of the river changes. It is no longer to the east of Death Mountain, it is in the north, and DM is in the east. Still, when we visit new Kakariko we see a stream flowing into the spirit’s pool, and behind the cemetery is a Zora burial ground; not too far from where we might expect them to be if the Zora’s Domain were still to the south (in TP) of Kakariko. But it is not, it’s in the north now. My theory is that they moved. When Ganon froze their original domain, they left it and established a new one further away, and being the guardians of the river and the water temple, they changed the flow of the river themselves to keep their access to Lake Hylia open, shutting off the old river stream, but still allowing it to flow near Kakariko as it does in OoT.

Lake Hylia is in the south. It’s there in OoT, it’s there in LttP, and it may be there in LoZ as well. The source of the river flows into Lake Hylia in each game, sometimes taking a different route. In MC it flows to the east of Castle Town, in OoT it flows through Castle Town’s moat on to the west separating the Desert from Hyrule, in TP it flows to the east and south of Castle Town, in LttP it flows through the Castle’s Moat and to the east, and in LoZ it flows into the large lakes in the center of the map and out into the ocean. In MC it is in the eastern area, but still to the south of the Royal Castle, in OoT it is south of Hyrule Field and west of Kokiri Forest, in TP it is south west of Castle Town and northwest of Ordona/Lost Woods, in LttP it’s to the south east of the Royal Castle, and in LoZ it could be one of two places. In Legend of Zelda, there are two bodies of water that take up more than one screen. There’s the large lake in the middle of the map that has two island dungeons, and there’s the smaller lake to the southeast of those that has nothing of great significance. We could assume that the larger lake is Hylia, since the river flows into it, but where would that place the Castle? It’s not really in this game, but then neither is the Temple of Time or Castle Town. Temple of Time’s absence doesn’t surprise me, after all, the Master Sword is absent, and presumably hidden within the Lost Woods somewhere, possibly with it’s power gone as in Wind Waker, and Castle Town’s absence doesn’t surprise me either since all the people have hidden themselves in caves, Princess Zelda has been captured, Castle Town must have been destroyed (and not for the first time). By the same token, Kakariko must have been destroyed or abandoned. I’ve often wondered if some of the dungeons that Zelda hid the Triforce fragments in were actually pre existing dungeons simply repurposed. It’s possible then that one of the dungeons on an island in the middle of the large lake is the Royal Castle, and if so, then the smaller lake to the southeast would be Lake Hylia, all dried up, as it was in TP.

The Desert is in the West. Now, I believe this desert is as vast as Hyrule Kingdom is, but since Link is not from there, the game does not focus on it and thus we see only fragments of it in each game. I believe that the Mystery Desert in LttP, Gerudo’s Desert in OoT, and the Desert in TP are different parts of the same greater desert area. In OoT the entrance to the Gerudo’s area is further north, whereas the area through wich you access the Arbiter’s Grounds is further south, by Lake Hylia. The Desert of Mystery in LttP may be the same desert as in TP, or another area still. In each game the desert remains in the west. The only one that gets it wrong is LoZ, where there is a desert area in the northeast, but this is just south of the source of the river and might possibly correspond with the desolation of New Kakariko, since it was a desert town in TP. The Gerudo’s Desert area may simply be off the map. Link would not need to go there since there’s nothing there for him to uncover, and the Gerudo’s have all died off or intermarried with the Hylians.

Castle Town, and the Royal Castle moves, but is usually in a central location to offer refuge to the outlying provinces. Castle Town and the Royal Castle are the worst fortified places I’ve ever seen. They get magically manipulated or outright destroyed in Minish Cap, Twilight Princess, Ocarina of Time, Link to the Past, and Wind Waker, and are completely non-existent in LoZ and LoZ:AoL. It would be no surprise to me then that they have to keep rebuilding and moving the Royal Castle to a new strategic place every 100 years, and Castle Town would obviously move with it for protection. In TP we can see obvious signs of construction/reconstruction as wolf Link traverses the battlements early in the game.

[josh_manga]

New and Old Kakariko explains some of the changes in Kakariko’s placement. In MC Kakariko hasn’t yet been established, in OoT it’s in the process of being rebuilt from Impa’s Childhood (if I recall correctly), in TP there are two of them, old and new. Perhaps it was actually Old K that Impa from OoT grew up in and New K is the one she built. After Link found Old K in TP, people probably moved back into it, and it is Old K that Link in LttP finds, since it is no longer at the base of Death Mt. There is the old Sanctuary and cemetery in LttP at the base of Death Mt., and we find the Shaman in TP, and TP and OoT both have cemeteries in Kakariko. Both presumably royal cemeteries since in OoT there is royalty buried there and the ancient Temple of Darkness is there, and in TP there is the royal burial place of the Zora hidden behind it, and in LttP there is a secret passage way into the dungeon of the Castle through a grave. In LttP the secret passage from the Castle Dungeon exits into the Sanctuary, and in TP the Shaman’s house has some tunnels excavated under it. If TP occurred before LttP, then these excavations could have become the secret passage that Link and Zelda took to escape the Castle in LttP. Also recall that in MC, the Royal Cemetery is at the base of Mt Crenel, and is hidden by the Lost Woods. In LoZ we see a grey area that is a vast cemetery, presumably a royal cemetery since one of the graves holds the Magic Sword. The cemetery is at the base of Death Mt, so I believe it marks the area where New Kakariko once stood. The cemetery may be just big because of the centuries of royalty buried there, or perhaps it is swollen from Ganon’s onslaught, and the citizens buried their loved ones there before retreating to the caves around Hyrule.

The Lost Woods are alive and sentient. I’ve stated before that I think they are linked to the magic of Hyrule, coming and going as they please. I think this may be due to their connection with the spirit guardians of light that Link finds in TP, or perhaps they are just sentient in their own right. Furthermore, I think that the Skull Kid does more than live in the Lost Woods, I think he is the Lost Woods. He can manipulate their paths, appear and disappear at will, and never get’s lost himself. I think the Skull Kid may be like the childish insane shepherd of the Lost Woods, directing and contributing to their madness. Anywhere the Skull Kid lives, the forest becomes the Lost Woods. He’s a trickster, making them change their paths for poor Link, even in LoZ. Now, in Majora’s Mask the Skull Kid is a trickster, becoming malevolent with the power of the Mask, going so far as to cause a near apocalypse, but even without the Mask the Skull Kid has power. He always moves the Lost Woods paths, and perhaps even the Lost Woods themselves, he can summon the wooden marionettes to attack Link, he can play magical melodies. If he can move the Lost Woods, it stands to reason that he could move anything that enters the Lost Woods, or that the Woods surround. Originally, in MC, the Lost Woods were near the base of Mt Crenel/Death Mt by the Royal Cemetery. Perhaps this is the origin of the Skull Kid, a wandering specter escaped from the Cemetery, or corporeal ghost/Ghini. In OoT the Skull Kid moved to the south of Death Mt, into the heart of the Kokiri Forest, perhaps drawn there by the power of the Deku Tree, or by some power hidden in the Forest Temple, the Lost Woods sudden growth there may have contributed to the deterioration of that Temple. In Majora’s Mask we see that the Skull Kid displays an addiction to power, possibly living off powerful objects’ ambient energy as a source of sustenance. In TP, the Skull Kid remained in the south, but after the destruction of Castle Town, the Skull Kid inhabited the woods surrounding where the Royal Castle was and took over the Temple of Time, moving it to the south of Hyrule Field, where it deteriorated as he fed on its energies. The Master Sword too would have given off some power, and so the Skull Kid, being a ghost locked in time, would recognize the heritage of Link in TP and try to stop him from getting to the Master Sword, thereby taking from the Skull Kid one of his power sources. The Skull Kid remains there however, because the Temple of Time is there, as is the Dominion Rod. In LttP the Skull Kid moves to the north side of Hyrule again, back to his home at the base of Death Mt, since the Deku Tree is long dead and the Temple of Time has been depleted, all that is left is the pedestal and Master Sword which Link put back in place at the end of his adventure. In LttP the Lost Woods aren’t so “lostâ€

[josh_manga]

About the Master Sword; it’s not stated exactly when the Master Sword was created. In the manual for LttP it says that the sword was crafted by the sages during the imprisoning war, which we assume was the exaggerated events of OoT, but in OoT the sword was already pre-existent. However, it does not exist in MC, so it must have been created sometime after that, or had not been discovered as yet. In MC there is the Four Sword, which takes several forms before being fully reforged to its proper and final state, and one of these forms is known as the White Sword. As we know, there is another White Sword, found in LoZ. There is also the Magic Sword. This Magic Sword does not behave as the Four Sword does, at least not in Four Sword Adventures, but in MC the Four Sword must be used with the magic tiles in order to split Link into multiples, and there are none of these present in LoZ. My thought is that the White Sword in LoZ might be the same as the Four Sword found in MC, and the Magic Sword could be an abstract method of an upgrade for the White Sword, perhaps the tomb where the Magic Sword was found is the hiding place of the Four Sword’s Shrine. The gate way to the world of the Picori only opens every 100 years, and every 100 years Ganon or some other evil strikes Hyrule, so it’s possible that the events in LoZ coincide with one of those centennial epochs. It is also possible that the Magic Sword is actually the Master Sword, that someone found it in the Lost Woods and stole it from the Skull Kid, burying it with the last king, or was buried with the last Link to use it, but this defeats the statement that the Master Sword would sleep in the Lost Woods forever. Moreover, the Magic Sword does not behave as the Master Sword. In LttP Link had to light lamps to reveal Ganon, and in LoZ Link only needed to hit Ganon with the Magic Sword to reveal him (after lighting the room with the Triforce of Wisdom initially). I believe that the Master Sword is lost after LttP, the Four Sword is enshrined somewhere and perhaps powered down to being only the White Sword, and the Magic Sword is another special blade that we’ve seen in only LoZ, and possibly LoZ:AoL.

About the size changes in Hyrule; each game is itself a Legend. Legends change over time, parts get forgotten, other parts get exaggerated. Each Link encounters the same world 100 years apart, that’s about 5 generations down from the original source of each Legend. As some have stated, only the most salient and important parts of each story are included in each game, this reflects the possibility that each Link would remember Hyrule differently, and the legends people tell about his exploits would differ as well. It’s a matter of taking the games as mythology and not as historical accounts. Each area has different details that may exist in one century, but not in another, or if they are, perhaps not each Link saw them or paid attention to recall them later.

In the end, this is all just one fan’s intellectualization of a series of entertainment for the sake of entertainment. I do not follow any of what I’ve stated religiously, I will not choose to die for it, and have probably made plenty of errors to be pointed out. My knowledge of the series is not complete and my understanding of it is not absolute, therefore my opinions may be subject to change over time and with proper evidence and citation given. I hope however that it was at least an entertaining read.

And sorry for the triple post, i tried to make it all one post, but it was too long.

[Nate]

Just a minor (okay, huge nitpick). Link to the Past and Legend of Zelda cannot occur in the same timeline. The reason for this is the complete unification of the Triforce at the end of Link to the Past. This would prohibit Legend of Zelda from following LttP for two reasons:

1. The Essence of the Triforce states, "you have totally destroyed Ganon." This means that Ganon cannot come back after LttP. We can also assume that Link wished for eternal peace for the land of Hyrule, which would prohibit any more evil from happening after that game. However, there is a bigger reason.

2. Zelda II is a direct sequel to the first LoZ game, which means these two games are required to happen in the same timeline. In that timeline, the Triforce of Courage has been separated from the other two pieces for ages, so long in fact that it wasn't even mentioned in Legend of Zelda.

We know from Ocarina of Time that if someone with an unbalanced heart receives the Triforce, he will receive only the piece he most desires (Power in Ganondorf's case). As a side note, this indicates that Ganon had somehow achieved a balanced heart by the events of Link to the Past, since he made a wish on the unified Triforce, and it didn't split. At any rate, the Triforce is unified at the end of Link to the Past. However, the Triforce is split in Legend of Zelda. The only way this could have happened is if someone with an unbalanced heart wished on the Triforce again, but in that case, the Triforce of Courage would go to someone who embodied courage...which would be Link. However, in Zelda II, the Triforce of Courage is in the Great Palace.

This absolutely makes Legend of Zelda unable to follow Link to the Past. The Triforce was split prior to the events of Legend of Zelda (since Ganon had to invade Hyrule to obtain the Triforce of Power, he didn't already have it). The only way this would be possible is if another game was set between LttP and LoZ...and it couldn't have Ganon in it, since Ganon did not already have the Triforce of Power before the events of LoZ, meaning he can't be the one who split the Triforce (or else he would have already had it).

[Ante Bellum]

Does the Zelda timeline even make any sense? I mean, can anybody figure it out or does it contradict itself?

[mechana2015]

There isn't so much a Zelda timeline as a set of Zelda timelines with each as a parallel universe. Nate explained part of why.

[josh_manga]

Reply to Nate:
Good post, thanks for your input, those are some things i had not thought of, mostly because i'm not entirely certain of the Triforce's status in each game, so it is something i easily overlook.

Here's something though. We assume that Ganon had a balanced heart in LttP, but had he? When Link enters the inner chambers of the golden pyramid the Triforce comes down to him in three separate pieces before unifying. However since they are all in one place and not geographically separated, i suppose one might assume that Ganon had not split them.

Now you've got me thinking of all the games' Triforce. It's split in LoZ, i guess Link has the Triforce of Courage in AoL, it's split in WW, It's split in OoT, where is it in TP? Ganon doesn't have the Triforce of Power, he gains his power by feeding off Zant's malice doesn't he? Now, something i'm not clear on, if it was split in OoT, was it reunified at the end? I haven't beaten Ganon yet, so i haven't seen the end.

Also, what happens to the Triforce after the end of LttP? Does it go to Hyrule or stay in the Sacred Realm? And for that matter, is the Triforce really powerful enough to grant a wish of eternal peace in Hyrule? We don't see Link make that wish, the ending seems to imply he merely wished for the revival and healing of Hyrule. But if the Master Sword sleeps forever, that might imply that there's no need for it to awaken again, in which case there would be peace, or at least conflict that doesn't need the Master Sword to be resolved. Enter the Four Sword. I'm looking forward to the Skyward Sword, but i don't own a Wii... I'm hoping it will be a new weapon, but in all the art i've seen it looks identical to the Master Sword.

[Nate]

When Link enters the inner chambers of the golden pyramid the Triforce comes down to him in three separate pieces before unifying. However since they are all in one place and not geographically separated, i suppose one might assume that Ganon had not split them.

The dialog in the game clearly states Ganon made a wish on "the Triforce." In other Zelda games, when it is a piece of the Triforce, it's mentioned with a qualifier...for example, in the original LoZ the manual states Ganon has the "Triforce of Power." Since there is no qualifier in LttP, it's the unified Triforce that Ganondorf wished on.

i guess Link has the Triforce of Courage in AoL

As stated earlier, the Triforce of Courage is in the Great Palace in AoL. The entire game is Link going on a quest to retrieve the Triforce of Courage from the Great Palace to awaken the sleeping Zelda.

where is it in TP?

The Triforce is never mentioned anywhere in TP. The sages mention that Link, Ganondorf, and Zelda possess the power of the goddesses, but the word "Triforce" is never spoken in the game. It's heavily implied that Ganondorf possesses the Triforce of Power, Zelda Wisdom, and Link Courage, though.

if it was split in OoT, was it reunified at the end?

Because of the timeline split, there are two answers. In the timeline where Ganondorf took over Hyrule, the Triforce is probably still split. In the timeline where Ganondorf did not take over Hyrule, it was unified.

Also, what happens to the Triforce after the end of LttP? Does it go to Hyrule or stay in the Sacred Realm?

The Dark World turns back into the Sacred Realm and the unified Triforce stays there.

And for that matter, is the Triforce really powerful enough to grant a wish of eternal peace in Hyrule?

The Triforce is an artifact of the goddesses who created Hyrule, so the answer is probably yes. Remember, Ganondorf's wish was to rule the world, and that wish turned the lovely and wonderful Sacred Realm into the Dark World. And Ganondorf would also have succeeded in taking over the Light World as well if Link hadn't stopped him. The game also states that the stronger the person's wish, the more powerful the Triforce's expression of that wish...which is how Ganondorf's wish corrupted the Sacred Realm in the first place, and allowed him to almost break the seal of the sages. Since we can assume that Link has a righteous and courageous heart, his wish for peace for Hyrule would have been extremely strong...and thus, the Triforce's expression of that wish would have been strong as well. Which is why the Master Sword sleeps again...this time FOREVER.

We don't see Link make that wish, the ending seems to imply he merely wished for the revival and healing of Hyrule.

Well one, Link doesn't talk. Two, the ending doesn't really imply it, it basically outright states "Link wished for everything to be set right and peace to reign in Hyrule."

But if the Master Sword sleeps forever, that might imply that there's no need for it to awaken again, in which case there would be peace, or at least conflict that doesn't need the Master Sword to be resolved. Enter the Four Sword.

The Master Sword is the blade of evil's bane. It's entire existence is to banish evil. If it sleeps forever, there's no more evil to banish. Really the only reason the Master Sword didn't show up in Four Swords/Minish Cap is because one, the Master Sword may not have existed at the time of Minish Cap (chronologically, Minish Cap seems to be the very first game of the Zelda timeline), and two, the Four Sword was central to the plot of the Four Swords games (as Vaati was sealed inside it).

I'm looking forward to the Skyward Sword, but i don't own a Wii... I'm hoping it will be a new weapon, but in all the art i've seen it looks identical to the Master Sword.

It has been confirmed the Skyward Sword is the Master Sword.

[Midori]

I don't think it ever says that a person with an impure heart is the only thing that can split the triforce. Even the individual pieces of the triforce can be broken into fragments, as LoZ and WW attest. Perhaps it takes nothing more than a strong hammer to shatter the triforce. As for Ganon being destroyed, well, he gets destroyed all the time. In LoZ, you destroy Ganon to the point where he turns into a pile of dust, but it's said in the direct sequel AoL (or its manual) that if Ganon's creatures can get ahold of Link's blood, they can still revive him (which happens if you get a Game Over). Ganon's method of resurrection is usually a mystery, but it may work by a simliar mechanic every other time.

I've long been a proponent of the ZHQ timeline theory myself; but of course that doesn't have any bearing on more recent games since ZHQ no longer exists. One thing I do not like, however, is the 'split timeline' theory. I've always felt like it was a cop-out to avoid apparent inconsistencies. I don't think Wind Waker has to be set in an alternate future where Link left the timestream. I think it makes more sense taking place after all the other mainline Zelda games. The King seems pretty intent on declaring that Hyrule is no more, after all. The level of technology in Wind Waker and the apparent evolution of a couple species also indicate that thousands of years have passed.

As for Minish Cap, it seems to share more in common with the Four Swords games than the mainline games. I would not be beyond putting the Four Swords series in a seperate universe.

Twilight Princess, however, is really strange. It adds not one but two extra mythologies on top; the Twilight Realm, and the Oocca (bird people), who are said to have in some respect created Hyrule. I think that it makes the most sense as a fairly close sequel to OoT, but again, all the extra stuff makes me tempted to put it in a different timeline. That, together with the very strong impression I get that Wind Waker was declaring itself (not by words, but by emotions) to be the last real Zelda game, making all the later Zelda games no more authoritative than fanfics.

[josh_manga]

I guess that makes sense then.

The timeline is definitely a mess, and you bring up some good points i'd not thought of before, like the lasting peace and all. I guess since LttP is the (only?) one where Link gets his hands on the whole triforce that would then be the end of the series? For at least one timeline at least, if we do split it.

I like the idea of a split dimension with their own timelines, but only because it's a novel idea for a game series. I suppose the other way of looking at it though is that since things were healed in the future OOT, that the events in the past never happened, Ganon was retroactively sealed into the Sacred Realm somewhere after the point that he invaded Hyrule? So the future as a timeline simply vanishes and is replaced by the childhood timeline.

If the LttP is the last game that the Triforce is whole in, then LoZ and AoL can't come after it, and WW can't come after it either because of the Master Sword and the Triforce of Courage is split in it as well.

So, Link gets the ToC in AoL, but does he unify the Triforce as a whole? I suppose it might be assumed that he does. Does Link have the Master Sword in the DS titles?

Zelda seems to be getting away from the Triforce with each game, it's not in Minish Cap, Twilight Princess, Majora's Mask... I haven't seen Spirit Tracks or Phantom Hourglass yet. I know Nintendo said they were going to be leaving the regular Dungeon/Overworld travel setup after Skyward Sword, so i'm interested to see what they will do next.

That the Skyward Sword is the Master Sword bothers me. I dunno why, but it really does. But it makes me wonder if the Master Sword and the Four Sword could be the same as well, though i doubt it.

I find the Ooccoo and the Picori to be interestingly similar, and that cloud race in MC... Perhaps they evolved into the Ooccoo between MC and TP? And on that note, why would an aquatic race like the Zora need to evolve into a avian race? I would think the Zora could thrive in an all water world, if they were going to evolve from freshwater Zoras to anything i would think it would be salt water Zoras like in MM.

Seems like i had more to say, but i'm posting in two different forums simultaneously.

[Midori]

If Ganon acquired the triforce and wished to rule Hyrule, but then Link defeated Ganon and overrode his wish by wishing for peace, I think it's possible then that Link's wish can also be overridden later by somebody else acquiring the triforce.

[josh_manga]

"If Ganon acquired the triforce and wished to rule Hyrule, but then Link defeated Ganon and overrode his wish by wishing for peace, I think it's possible then that Link's wish can also be overridden later by somebody else acquiring the triforce."

Exactly, similarly the Triforce of Power doesn't grant absolute power, if it did, Ganon would be invincible. And the Triforce of Wisdom doesn't grant absolute knowledge and cunning, if it did, Zelda would never allow herself to be captured.

Anyway, this has gotten off topic some. The point of the original post(s) wasn't to establish a timeline, but to establish the continuity of Hyrule. What are your thoughts on that?

[Midori]

Geography? I'm not sure. Some of the games feature similar geography, but in other games the geography is wildly different. I haven't given much thought before to geography, so there's no way I can match your huge (and very interesting) treatise on the continuity of various parts of the land. In the end, I think of it like you said: the games are legends, and legends change slightly from telling to telling. Little details like geography are rarely remembered.

[Nate]

I don't think it ever says that a person with an impure heart is the only thing that can split the triforce.

Nitpick: It's not an "impure" heart, it's a heart that is not balanced between all three virtues (power, wisdom, courage). If a person with an unbalanced heart gets the Triforce, they only receive the piece representing what they desire most. In Ganondorf's case, this was Power. The remaining fragments then go to people who best embody the remaining two pieces (Wisdom for Zelda, Courage for Link).

If stands to reason that if Link at the beginning of Ocarina of Time obtained the Triforce somehow, it would split and he'd only receive Courage. Whether the heart is good or evil doesn't matter, it's the balance between the three virtues. This is why I said somehow before Link to the Past, Ganondorf must have achieved a balanced heart, because it didn't split.

I don't think Wind Waker has to be set in an alternate future where Link left the timestream. I think it makes more sense taking place after all the other mainline Zelda games.

That would be possible, except in Wind Waker, in the room with the Master Sword, there are stained glass windows of the seven sages from Ocarina of Time. The problem is that at the end of OoT, Zelda sends Link back in time to his childhood. This means that Ruto, Darunia, Saria...none of them became sages, because the future timeline of Ganondorf taking over Hyrule never happened. Since they never became sages, why would there be stained glass windows of them in the Master Sword chamber? It means that Wind Waker HAS to take place in the timeline where Ganondorf DID take over Hyrule and they DID become sages, which would have to be separate from the timeline where Link was a child a second time due to Zelda sending him into the past (since again, they didn't become sages in that timeline).

Also Ganondorf states when Link meets him the first time that the Master Sword sealed him away once before, which happens after the final boss battle in OoT. Again, this necessitates that Ganondorf actually took over Hyrule (the "bad future" events of OoT). But again, Zelda sent Link back to his childhood, and none of that happened...because if it did it wouldn't make sense, that would mean Link is hanging out in Hyrule somewhere while his "other self" who was sealed for seven years is running around doing stuff.

There clearly is a split in the timeline.

Wind Waker was declaring itself (not by words, but by emotions) to be the last real Zelda game, making all the later Zelda games no more authoritative than fanfics.

So Phantom Hourglass isn't a real Zelda game? :p I'm okay with this.

If Ganon acquired the triforce and wished to rule Hyrule, but then Link defeated Ganon and overrode his wish by wishing for peace, I think it's possible then that Link's wish can also be overridden later by somebody else acquiring the triforce.

I don't think so, probably because of the way the wishes were worded. Ganondorf's wish was clearly "I wish to rule the world." This transformed the Sacred Realm into the Dark World, and gave him a foothold to go to the Light World and completely take over.

If he wishes to rule the world, someone can kill him and prevent that. He didn't wish for immortality or invulnerability, so there's ways to stop him. However, Link's wish was probably "I wish for everlasting peace for the land of Hyrule" or something to that effect. That's a wish that can't really be "undone" easily, because anything that would threaten that peace would mean the wish wasn't actually granted (unlike Ganon's wish, which WAS granted, just not in the way he wanted it).

And again, the game itself says the Master Sword sleeps forever at the end. This is pretty iron-clad proof that the peace in Hyrule was indeed everlasting, necessitating it to be the last major game in the timeline (Link's Awakening happens after LttP, as the manual states it's the same Link from LttP, but the peace of Hyrule was not threatened in that game, nor is the Master Sword present, so it is perfectly fine).

I guess since LttP is the (only?) one where Link gets his hands on the whole triforce

Actually Link comes into contact with the unified Triforce at the beginning of the Oracle of Seasons/Ages games, but he is unable to make a wish on it, as it transports him to Holodrum/Labrynna on a quest to save those lands.

It can also be assumed that Hyrule has the unified Triforce at the end of AoL, since they would have already had the Triforces of Power and Wisdom from LoZ, and obtain the Triforce of Courage at the end of AoL. This isn't stated in the game, obviously, but again, it's probably likely.

WW can't come after it either because of the Master Sword and the Triforce of Courage is split in it as well.

Again, WW comes after the "bad future" timeline of OoT, as evidenced by the stained glass windows of the sages in the Master Sword chamber, and Ganon mentioning that the Master Sword sealed him away before, as well as the opening sequence mentioning the Hero of Time specifically (Link's title in OoT). It's obviously a long while between the two games (possibly thousands of years) but WW definitely comes after OoT. There may be other events that happened in between OoT and WW (in fact, there very likely are), but due to the emphasis on the Hero of Time, it's clear that OoT and WW are very strongly connected.

[Midori]

The stained-glass windows are not proof that WW is in an alternate timeline. There's nothing saying the sages did not still become sages after Link went back to the past. And even if they were not, and nobody else knew that they were sages, Link himself knew that they were sages, and he and Zelda could have told everyone about the story, and everything. In fact, the story about the sages had to have gotten out, because in LttP's intro, it mentions that the seven sages were responsible for sealing Ganon away. If the knowledge of the seven sages proves WW to be in the alternate timeline, then LttP has to be in the same timeline. Sure, the pictures in the intro of LttP show seven old hunchbacks instead of the OoT seven sages, but that was drawn long before OoT was created, and it's surely not the only piece of artwork of the seven sages that existed in Hyrule.

As for Ganon saying that the master sword sealed him away before: that seems to be convincing evidence for an alternate timeline at first, but when you look at the main Zelda timeline, Ganon was still sealed away after Link went back into the past. It shows in OoT, when Ganon didn't return immediately after Link went back, and it shows in LttP, where the backstory says that Ganon was sealed away. I don't know the mechanism by which Ganon, after being sealed away in the future, was also sealed away in the past, but that is clearly what happened. And since he was still sealed away, it's not strange that Ganon would still know the Master Sword did it. Furthermore, this fact indicates an odd causal relationship between the two "timelines", which is what makes me think that it is closer to time-travel than it is to an unrelated parallel universe. Even time-travel doesn't quite fit the bill. Perhaps it was a virtual universe created by the magic of the Master Sword/sages/whatever, which would explain why Link was able to freely travel between the worlds and was able to both carry knowledge of the future back to the past and affect the future by his actions in the past, and why the act of sealing Ganon away took hold in the real world as well.

So the only piece of info you've mentioned that's frustrating my view of the timeline is the "master sword sleeps forever" thing. However, that is only one line, and I do not think it necessitates creating a timeline split, which I think is more improbable than there being an inconsistency in the text, given what I believe about the mechanics of the time travel in OoT.

[josh_manga]

I guess this would place Twilight Princess after OOT in the good/child timeline. Wasn't Ganon stated as being no more than a thief and mischief maker? But so bad a one that the sages (which appear regardless of Ganon's rise to power, just not the sages we know) sealed him into the Twilight Realm.

If we take a look at the Sages, assuming Ruto, Saria and the rest don't become Sages in the child timeline, we still have Sages, but likely just Hylian ones, like the ones we see in TP. Also, there are descendants of the Sages in LttP, which again are all Hylian maidens.

Still, i see no reason why Ruto and Saria couldn't become sages anyway, and if the awakening is a spiritual descendancy then hylians could become sages down the line again. But LttP suggests this is not the case since Aghanim is looking specifically for people of the sages' bloodline.

[Midori]

The TP sages look pretty weird compared to the OoT sages or even the FS-continuum sages, but I'm willing to call that artistic/mythological license, as well as them being actually different people who merely inherited the positions. I don't know whether it's inherited by blood or spiritually, but even if it's inherited spiritually, Agahnim could have simply found the spiritual successors rather than the biological successors, though that's not exactly what it says...I don't know. It's pretty ambiguous, although I don't suppose there must be a rule keeping the hylians from cross-breeding with the other races, but it'd be pretty weird to see a half-zora or half-goron. And that's not even considering the Kokiri, since even their normal reproduction mechanism is completely glossed over in canon...perhaps rightly so...

[josh_manga]

I agree, they did look wierd, even in the video where they banish Ganon. I assumed they were no more than spirits, since the whole Arbiter Grounds was haunted. But Ganon managed to kill/seriously harm one of them, implying either a quasi physical form, or the magic of that sword was capable of harming spirits.

About the Kokiri and repoduction: ew... i'm kinda glad for that reason that they got turned into seedlings or whatever in WW, much less creepy.

[Nate]

There's nothing saying the sages did not still become sages after Link went back to the past.

That doesn't make sense, because they only awakened as sages so Link could collect their power to enter Ganondorf's Tower. If Ganondorf doesn't take over Hyrule, then their power isn't awakened, and they're not sages.

With the exception of Rauru, possibly, since he seemed to already be awakened and an active sage before Link got sealed.

In fact, the story about the sages had to have gotten out, because in LttP's intro, it mentions that the seven sages were responsible for sealing Ganon away.

Different sages, just as there are different Links and different Zeldas. This is made obvious in Twilight Princess when the sages are strange phantom-like beings that don't resemble humans or the sages from OoT. They are sages, but they're not the same sages as the OoT sages, nor the LttP sages.

Also remember that the Maidens you rescue in the Dark World dungeons are descendants of the seven sages...and all of them are human. If the LttP sages were supposed to be the OoT sages, there'd be a Goron one, a Zora one, and so on. The fact that all seven Maidens were human implies that the seven sages were all human (or weird interspecies breeding went on, but it's probably the former). Especially since the intro to LttP shows images of the seven sages, and all of them are arguably human-looking.

when you look at the main Zelda timeline, Ganon was still sealed away after Link went back into the past.

That doesn't make sense. In the end of OoT, when you defeat Ganon, he is sealed in the Sacred Realm. The ONLY reason the Sacred Realm could be accessed was by opening the Door of Time with the Ocarina of Time and the three stones. Remember, Ganondorf allowed Link to succeed because he couldn't access the Sacred Realm himself...and that gave Ganondorf access to the Triforce.

If you're arguing Ganondorf was sealed in the Sacred Realm when Link was sent back in time, you're saying that they gave him access to the Triforce again...which would allow Ganondorf to wish on it again, which would let him take over the world.

In other words, Ganondorf could not possibly be sealed in the Sacred Realm because then Zelda sending Link back in time would be absolutely pointless. Not to mention the Master Sword was the key to the Sacred Realm, meaning that the Master Sword cannot possibly have been used to seal Ganondorf anywhere in the Link childhood timeline (because then the Sacred Realm would be opened up, and Ganondorf gets the Triforce again). Basically, the Master Sword was never touched in the timeline where Link becomes a child again, because doing so gives Ganondorf access to the Triforce...meaning that since Ganondorf explicitly states the Master Sword sealed him away in WW, that it is required to be an alternate timeline from the Link childhood timeline.

I don't know whether it's inherited by blood or spiritually

It's by blood. Pulling up the game script for Link to the Past, three statements confirm this:

"You must also rescue the seven maidens who Agahnim sent to the Dark World. As members of the blood-line of the seven wise men, they have power that will surely help you." - Sahasrahla

"They say the Hylia people controlled mysterious powers, as did the seven wise men. But the blood of the Hylia has become thin over time. We who carry the blood of the seven wise men do not possess strong power any more, either." - Maiden

"Some maidens still need your help, though. Once you rescue them all, go to Ganon's Tower. We who are of the blood-line of the wise men will then use our power to break Ganon's barrier!" - Zelda

[Midori]

Well, as interested as I am in this subject, the fact that my arguments and your arguments are pretty much exact polar opposites of eachother leads me to believe that debating it will not cause any change in either of our opinions. There's no way to perfectly fit the Zelda games together, so we're both willing to accept some inconsistencies, but the inconsistencies we accept are radically different, and the assumptions we make about various things in the Zelda universe are also radically different.

You are assuming, for instance, that the OoT future and the OoT past are effectively completely seperate universes without any effect on eachother, and have seperate timelines. You are also assuming that the literal texts must be completely and literally consistent, at the expense of any other connections between the games.

To be fair, I am also making assumptions, such as that the literal text doesn't have to be completely consistent, and that the backstory in the manual of LttP is referring directly to the plot of OoT, and that the sacred realm Ganon is sealed in in OoT is the same sacred realm as the one that is transformed into the dark world in LttP. But debating your conclusions based on my assumptions, or my conclusions based on your assumptions, is quite illogical.

[Nate]

Yeah, there's really no way to prove anything at this point, it's pretty subjective. XD We don't have enough evidence for either of us to back up our statements.

I do want to say that thinking back, I think that it would probably be best to assume that the Ganondorf in LttP is a separate Ganondorf from the OoT one. It isn't that much of a stretch, considering that all the different Links are similar, as well as all the Zeldas. Especially since the LttP manual states Ganondorf as a simple thief, and even has an image of Ganondorf before his transformation into Ganon, and he obviously looks nothing like the OoT Ganondorf.

So yeah, the LttP Ganondorf is probably a separate person, and the events in the intro to LttP are not a retelling of the OoT events...that seems to make the most sense, at least. I think at this point, we only have concrete evidence for a connection between a handful of games: OoT, Majora's Mask, and Wind Waker are clearly the same universe, LttP and Link's Awakening are in the same universe, and LoZ and AoL are in the same universe. Oh and Four Swords Adventures and Minish Cap are in the same universe. But outside of that, there's no evidence of any relationship between the games. I'd even say the evidence in Twilight Princess (Temple of Time, Saria's Song, etc.) isn't strong enough to place it in the same universe as OoT. The ones I mentioned are just the ones that absolutely are confirmed to be in the same universe.

You are assuming, for instance, that the OoT future and the OoT past are effectively completely seperate universes without any effect on eachother

Well again, as I said, if you want to believe that Zelda sent Link back to relive his childhood, and then Ganondorf still took over the world regardless, that means one of two things: either child Link died when Ganondorf took over Hyrule, or there's a second Link just hanging out somewhere in Hyrule while the Link who was sealed away for seven years is running around saving the world. The first seems unlikely, and the second just seems silly. :p

You are also assuming that the literal texts must be completely and literally consistent, at the expense of any other connections between the games.

*nod* I do, because I don't think you can argue based on conjecture if it contradicts what's explicitly stated in the game. Unless Nintendo comes out and says things were a mistranslation or something, I think taking the game's words at face value is necessary. And Nintendo has come out and said certain things were translated wrong. For example, the original box for Link to the Past said that it was a "prequel" to the original Legend of Zelda game (and the title even implied that as well). However, Triforce of the Gods (Japanese name for LttP) was never meant to be a prequel to LoZ, and Nintendo has said that the statement that LttP is a prequel to the original games is not true.

They also changed a few things in the GBA translation of LttP. I know one of them was to change "wise men" to "sages" (probably because of OoT). I can't remember many of the others, though, since the GBA version is my least favorite version of the game, so I only played it once.

But yeah, I don't think there's anything necessarily wrong with your assumptions, I just don't agree with 'em. And since neither of us can prove our point, I think yeah, this argument isn't going anywhere anytime soon. XP

[josh_manga]

Midori, thanks for posting, i enjoyed your input. (i sense you may be leaving the thread soon? Hope not.) And in passing, let me just say that i think that any timeline is flawed and the games are best played independently of each other anyway.

The only reason i think about the timeline at all is because i have fun doing it. The same goes for the geography, which is what this thread is about.

When all is said and done, it's only entertainment, so i am glad we can all keep from getting bent out of shape if/when we disagree.

[josh_manga]

Anyway Nate, what do you think about the geography? I haven't noticed any comments on that yet.

[Midori]

I don't think I'm quite ready to leave the discussion yet, though I still don't have much to say about geography. I would like to further discuss one point with Nate, if that's okay with him, regarding the nature of OoT's time travel.

Well again, as I said, if you want to believe that Zelda sent Link back to relive his childhood, and then Ganondorf still took over the world regardless, that means one of two things: either child Link died when Ganondorf took over Hyrule, or there's a second Link just hanging out somewhere in Hyrule while the Link who was sealed away for seven years is running around saving the world. The first seems unlikely, and the second just seems silly. :p

I must confess I don't understand what you're saying here. Which is not to say it doesn't make sense, but I really don't get it. It seems to me the question is not so much "what happened to Link after he went back in time" as it is "what happened to Ganondorf after Link went back". See, when Link goes back to time, everything else is back to how it was in the past. Only Link retains any memories of the future, because he's the one doing the time travelling. So, if Zelda is in her child state, and the sages are in their pre-sage state, then why isn't Ganon back in his pre-sealed state? And if he's still running around being evil, what was the point of travelling to the future anyway?

As far as I can see, there are only three possible things that could have happened to Ganondorf:
1. He is back to his normal self after Link goes back to the past.
2. His being sealed in the future magically made him also sealed in the past.
3. He somehow disappeared from the past timestream entirely.
All of these are kind of unlikely in their own ways, really. 1 is unlikely, because beating Ganondorf was the whole point of the Master Sword sending Link into the future; 2 is unlikely because it implies a potentially paradoxical causal relationship between the future and the past; and 3 is unlikely because there's no reason for Ganondorf to just disappear like that, since it was Link travelling through time with the Master Sword and not Ganondorf.

I am in favor of 2, but of course that's because I think OoT is the backstory of LttP. It seems to me like you're advocating 3, but I'm not sure. Which of these does your timeline theory include, or if there is another possibility, what is it?

[josh_manga]

I thought the point of Link time traveling was because his body was too young to use the Master Sword, not necessarily just to beat Ganondorf.

Anyway, i see your points about the time paradoxes and such. I've read a fanfic a looong time ago that attempted to explain things, but it involved Link wielding the Master Sword without time traveling, just his body matured, Ganon broke out of his banishment and the Sages awoke again (not having known they were sages because this is the child's timeline). Anyway, it wasn't an explanation i liked much.

I still think that if Rauru was already active as a Sage, then there might have been other sages, maybe they died of old age, maybe they were killed by Ganon in his invasion, maybe those Sagely lines had been broken long ago. This seems to make sense since there are temples far and wide in territory not belonging to Hyrule (the kingdom), perhaps Hyrule had been bigger at one point, or there was a pre-existing culture that gave way to Hyrule. Donno about the entire history and mythos there.

And i still wonder if the Sages in Twilight Princess were present perhaps in OOT's time, and were the ones to seal Ganondorf away after Link beat him in the future. But that still poses a problem, if Ganondorf needs to be beaten in the present, what good does it do for Link to wait 7 years to beat him?

What Midori said about the Sages awakening in the child's timeline makes sense to me. There are these temples, and temples should have their sages and priests, in a good world why wouldn't they awaken anyway? If the reason they awoke was because they were destined to, they would regardless of if there's a villain to put down.

To say that the Sages mentioned in LttP are different that those in OOT is all well and good, but it's commonly accepted that OOT is the war mentioned in the prologue to LttP, so it's safe to assume they are the same Sages, unless we embrace a split timeline and LttP is in the dark/adult timeline.

I think the time travel was a cool idea, but is the fault for the majority of the timeline inconsistencies, it's own conclusion being one of them.

My only guess is that somehow when you banish someone, they are banished across time and space, so all iterations of that being would disappear simultaneously, a sort of ubiquitous banishment. When that being is banished, it spends time in the other realm concurrent with the real world, so that when Ganon finally broke free he was not placed back in time prior to his banishment, nor at the exact moment of his banishment, but rather centuries into the future, according to his own timeline.

Since the Master Sword has the ability to preserve Link's physical body in perfect health, without muscle degeneration or nutrient starvation, placing his spirit into stasis so he transverses 7 years without going mad, and then back again. And since the Temple of Time is known to have time flux issues anyway, both freezing time and preserving objects within it (WW and TP) perhaps some conjunction of the Master Sword's power with that of the Temple of Time, which wasn't far away from the final battle with Ganon, and the power of the Triforce which Link and Zelda possessed, was able to reach across time and seal Ganondorf and Ganon away.

Ok, that was really sci-fi and nerdy, but whatever

[Nate]

I must confess I don't understand what you're saying here.

I may be misunderstanding you, I think. You said that "You are assuming, for instance, that the OoT future and the OoT past are effectively completely seperate universes without any effect on eachother, and have seperate timelines."

To me, this seemed like you were saying that after Zelda sends Link back in time after defeating Ganon, that everything will still happen exactly as it did in the "bad future." In other words, Ganondorf still takes over Hyrule, it's just that Link is now a child again so he experiences these years where Ganondorf is in charge and the "original" Link is sealed in the Temple of Light.

That's what I thought you meant by the OoT future and OoT past are in the same timeline. That may not be what you're advocating, but then we have the Chrono Trigger dilemma, of what about the timeline where Ganondorf took over Hyrule and Link defeated him? Where did that future "go?"

It's almost a sad ending, then. You see everyone in Hyrule celebrating and cheering, because Ganon has been defeated...but then they are destined to vanish. Their lives will end. They will cease to exist, because the timeline has changed. The cries of those who were never meant to be echo throughout the timestream.

It seems to horrible, too painful to consider. So we have a choice. There are two options:

1. When Link is turned into a child the second time by Zelda, Ganondorf's plot was stopped. He never took over Hyrule and never obtained the power of the Triforce. The "alternate timeline" where he did take over Hyrule is erased, lost in time, the cheering and dancing citizens of Hyrule denied existence by the timestream...cast into the void of the future that was never meant to be.

NOTE: I'm obviously exaggerating greatly here. I just love Chrono Trigger, but I do think you have to admit that the future where adult Link saved Hyrule immediately ceases to exist, which makes the celebration party at the end of the game literally pointless.

2. When Link is turned into a child the second time by Zelda, Ganondorf's plot was not stopped. He still got into the Sacred Realm and obtained the power of the Triforce, necessitating Link to be sealed in the Temple of Light to become the Hero of Time. This can happen one of two ways. Either a) Link is stuck in a time loop, eternally being turned into a child so he can always become the Hero and stop Ganondorf in the future, or b) when Zelda sends Link back into the past as a child, he is actually a "second Link" and the "original Link" is still collecting the Spiritual Stones and being sealed in the Temple of Light. This means "second Link" (the one Zelda sent to the past) is still around after "original Link" gets sealed in the Temple, and is hanging around Hyrule while Ganondorf is taking over it.

Neither one of these seems to be satisfactory to me, hence why I believe that much like in Chrono Cross, there are two alternate timelines, one where Ganondorf was not stopped (Link becomes Hero of Time) and one where he was (Link does not become Hero of Time).

So, if Zelda is in her child state, and the sages are in their pre-sage state, then why isn't Ganon back in his pre-sealed state?

Yes, Ganondorf should be in his pre-sealed state. He would still be the king's advisor, and still scheming on how to enter the Sacred Realm. The problem is that OoT states the Door of Time IS the seal on the Sacred Realm. Ganondorf can't enter the Sacred Realm and get the Triforce unless the Door of Time is opened and the Master Sword removed.

From the game:

"The Master Sword--the evil-destroying sword that you pulled out of the Pedestal of Time--was the final key to the Sacred Realm." - Rauru

The Sacred Realm can't be entered unless the Master Sword is removed from its pedestal. Ganondorf needed Link to pull the Master Sword out so he could enter the Sacred Realm, because being evil, he couldn't touch it.

"Geh heh heh! Excellent work! As I thought, you held the keys to the Door of Time! You have led me to the gates of the Sacred Realm...Yes, I owe it all to you, kid!" - Ganondorf

Ganondorf can't possible be sealed in the Sacred Realm when Link is sent back by Zelda. The "lock" is still intact. The Door of Time is closed, and the Master Sword is in the pedestal because Link didn't remove it. The Sacred Realm is thus inaccessible, and Ganondorf can't be sealed in it. Further, the Sages are not awakened (because they have no reason to be awakened, Rauru is the possible exception), meaning no one can be around to seal him anyway.

And if he's still running around being evil, what was the point of travelling to the future anyway?

The point of traveling to the future is that when Link removed the Master Sword from the pedestal, he was to be the Hero of Time. I'll just quote what Rauru says:

Only one worthy of the title of "Hero of Time" can pull it from the Pedestal of Time....
However, you were too young to be the Hero of Time....
Therefore, your spirit was sealed here for seven years. And now that you are old enough, the time has come for you to awaken as the Hero of Time!

In other words, it was never the plan to travel to the future. It's just that Link was too young to be the Hero and stop Ganon, so he had to be protected until he could be old enough to become the Hero. This sucks for the people of Hyrule, of course, since they have to suffer seven years of Ganondorf's cruel reign because of Link's age.

As for your three theories, if you're going to discard the "alternate timeline" theory, you have to adhere to one or two. However, this presents problems. If you assume number one, Ganondorf can't be sealed in the Sacred Realm. Why? Because Link can't seal him using the Master Sword, since he's too young to use it. If Link removes the Master Sword, he gets sealed in time, and Ganondorf gets in the Sacred Realm. Bad future.

If Ganondorf doesn't get sealed in the Sacred Realm, Wind Waker makes no sense, because it says explicitly that he was sealed there by the Master Sword, and mentions the Hero of Time numerous times...and again, the only reason Link is the Hero of Time is because he pulled the Master Sword. When Zelda sends Link back in time to his childhood, he can't become the Hero of Time again because he can't pull the Master Sword (since if he does, he gets sealed, Ganondorf takes over).

You could argue Link told everyone about it, but um...are you seriously saying that the King is going to believe an eight year old or so child coming up and going "I went to the future and I stopped Ganondorf's evil plan to take over Hyrule but then I got sent back in time again by Zelda and so now I'm a kid again but I'm really the Hero of Time and I saved your kingdom!"

Somehow, I don't think this is likely. The only way the legend of the Hero of Time can exist is if Ganondorf takes over Hyrule. If he's always going to take over Hyrule no matter what, then either Link is stuck in a time loop of eternally becoming the Hero of Time, or there's now "two Links" and one of them is chilling somewhere (or killed) when Ganondorf takes over.

However, you bring up an interesting point with 2. If we somehow assume that the Sacred Realm exists outside of time (this actually could be likely), then Ganondorf would remain sealed inside of it even after Zelda sends Link back to his childhood. This actually is the most plausible theory if you're going to deny the alternate timeline theory, although it still has the problem of how the legend of the Hero of Time propagated itself (ESPECIALLY since Ganondorf is no longer the king's advisor, meaning Link can't even do the "I saved your kingdom from that guy!" speech to the king, because "that guy" isn't there anymore). But it would explain how Ganondorf was sealed in the Sacred Realm and still did not have access to the Triforce so he could wish on it and take over Hyrule again.

As far as the Sacred Realm existing outside of time, this is likely because Link had no clue what happened when he pulled the Master Sword. All he knew was there was a flash of light and then suddenly an old guy was there. He certainly wasn't aware seven years had passed, which could indicate that the Sacred Realm exists outside of time. However, again, it wouldn't make sense how the Hero of Time legend could have been passed down.

It seems to me like you're advocating 3, but I'm not sure. Which of these does your timeline theory include, or if there is another possibility, what is it?

I'm advocating the timeline split. There is one timeline where Ganondorf succeeded in taking over Hyrule, but was stopped by the Hero of Time (Wind Waker obviously takes place in this timeline). There is a second timeline where Link was sent to his childhood by Zelda, and Ganondorf was stopped somehow before he could gain access to the Triforce or the Sacred Realm...most likely by Link not collecting the Spiritual Stones, and thus keeping the Door of Time sealed, and Link and Zelda finding another way to reveal Ganondorf's treachery to the king. Link doesn't become Hero of Time in this timeline, and Ganondorf is never sealed in the Sacred Realm. Twilight Princess takes place in this timeline as far as I'm concerned.

[Nate]

Heh, I know I'm double posting, but my original post was over the character limit, so I had to break it up. Sorry!

If the reason they awoke was because they were destined to, they would regardless of if there's a villain to put down.

This logic doesn't follow. The reason Link awoke as a hero is because there was a villain to put down. If there was no villain, could Link be a hero? If Link doesn't become a hero if there is no villain, the sages wouldn't become sages if there was no villain either.

it's commonly accepted that OOT is the war mentioned in the prologue to LttP

Commonly accepted? I don't buy that. I have no idea if that's the prevailing theory or not, but I would be willing to bet nobody thought that the prologue to LttP was talking about OoT, even AFTER OoT came out, until the GBA re-release where "wise men" was retranslated to "sages." I think then, and only then, did people think that, and that doesn't necessarily make it commonly accepted.

I don't hang out on Zelda fansites or forums, so maybe everyone DOES think that and I'm just clueless. But I really would need to see evidence that it's commonly accepted, and wiki pages wouldn't count.

[Midori]

All very interesting. I see how your two-timeline theory comes about. However...

You could argue Link told everyone about it, but um...are you seriously saying that the King is going to believe an eight year old or so child coming up and going "I went to the future and I stopped Ganondorf's evil plan to take over Hyrule but then I got sent back in time again by Zelda and so now I'm a kid again but I'm really the Hero of Time and I saved your kingdom!"

Of course the king wouldn't believe Link, but it's likely that Zelda would believe him (considering she was the one going all "You're going to save Hyrule" to Link), and then later when she became queen or whatever, she would propogate the story.

Commonly accepted? I don't buy that. I have no idea if that's the prevailing theory or not, but I would be willing to bet nobody thought that the prologue to LttP was talking about OoT, even AFTER OoT came out, until the GBA re-release where "wise men" was retranslated to "sages." I think then, and only then, did people think that, and that doesn't necessarily make it commonly accepted.

I was also under the impression that it was commonly accepted. Though as I said, I was always a proponent of the ZHQ theory (OoT -> LttP -> LA -> LoZ -> AoL), which, as far as I knew at the time, was the predominant timeline theory back in the late '90s, which accepts it. On ZHQ, and related Zelda fansites, the idea that OoT was intended to take place during the 'imprisoning war' existed even before OoT came out. I believe later there was a staff interview that confirmed it, and after a little searching today I found this:
http://www.1101.com/nintendo/nin1/index.htm
which is 21 pages of interview of the staff that created Ocarina of Time, in 1998 shortly after it was released. In particular this page:
http://www.1101.com/nintendo/nin1/nin1-12.htm
contains the following:

「]

今回、ゼルダ姫を含めて
７人の賢者が出てくるんですけれど、
その６人はディスク版の「リンクの冒険」に出てくる
町の名前になっています。

スーファミ版のときに、ゲームのなかで語られていた
「むかし、封印戦争という戦争がありました」という話の、
「封印戦争」の時代にいた賢者の名前が、
町の名前になっているというような「ネタふり」を
全体的にしているわけです。
あのときの、あれが、これだった、というね。
[...]
　　　　　（スクリプトディレクター・大澤　徹さん）

Of which I will make a rudimentary translation:

[b]"Please show me some connections to previous games"

This time, in addition to Princess Zelda, 7 sages make an appearance, and 6 of them have the same names as towns that appear in the Disk System's "Adventure of Link".

In the Super Famicom [SNES] game, there is in-game text that says "Long ago, there was a war called the 'Imprisoning War'". That the sages during the era of that 'Imprisoning War' had the same names as towns was a kind of easter egg we wanted to show throughout the story. As if to say "That thing, from then, was this".
[...goes on to mention Talon and Malon's similarity to Tarin and Marin...]
　　　　　(Script Director Oosawa Toru)

I'm not sure I translated everything well, especially the part about the 'easter egg', but the fact that the sages during LttP's Imprisoning War were the ones in OoT that were named after AoL towns is quite clear.

Someday I'm gonna go and read all 21 pages of that, because it looks rather interesting.

[Nate]

Bah, I had a long post and it got eaten. I'll try again.

it's likely that Zelda would believe him (considering she was the one going all "You're going to save Hyrule" to Link), and then later when she became queen or whatever, she would propogate the story.

The people may love Zelda, but I still feel if she as the Queen said "Hey, a bunch of stuff happened in an alternate timeline that was prevented by Link so now everyone has to herald him as a Hero!" they'd probably feel she'd been dropped on her head as a child. The opening of WW states pretty clearly a dark shadow fell over Hyrule, and a Hero appeared and defeated him. If nobody who was alive at the time it was supposed to happen actually remembers this, it's kind of unlikely that it would be a well-known legend.

On ZHQ, and related Zelda fansites, the idea that OoT was intended to take place during the 'imprisoning war' existed even before OoT came out.

Yeah but the ZHQ timeline has also been proven false by Miyamoto, because Miyamoto himself has stated that LttP happens after AoL, and the ZHQ timeline has LttP happening before LoZ. While one error doesn't invalidate their entire timeline, it does mean I'm not willing to accept it since it is provably one on a point (although, they may have changed the timeline to reflect Miyamoto's statement).

I'm not sure I translated everything well, especially the part about the 'easter egg', but the fact that the sages during LttP's Imprisoning War were the ones in OoT that were named after AoL towns is quite clear.

Hmm, that IS interesting, but it still conflicts with the canonical events in the Imprisoning War. To quote from the official account:

"Ganondorf's seizure of the Triforce tainted the Golden Land, transforming it into the Dark World and Ganondorf himself into a beast named Ganon. He launched an invasion against Hyrule with his new army of monsters, made up of people from Hyrule that came seeking the Golden Power for themselves. This invasion was repelled by the Knights of Hyrule, who gave their lives almost to the last to protect the Seven Sages as they cast a seal on the Dark World, trapping Ganon and his army inside and restoring peace to Hyrule."

First, Ganondorf never turned the Sacred Realm into the Dark World in OoT...that we know of, at least. The Sacred Realm may have been the Dark World, Link just never went to it, so that isn't a very good argument in my favor.

The last part is, however. In what part of OoT were the Knights of Hyrule present, and when did they give their lives to protect the Seven Sages? The Knights of Hyrule aren't Link...Link was never a knight, nor was he associated with the kingdom of Hyrule, and plus he was only one person. He also never gave his life to protect the Seven Sages...unless you state that Zelda sending him back to his childhood was considered to be his "death," but then we have the future being that Ganondorf succeeded in taking over Hyrule, which runs into the problem of Link being in an eternal time loop or hanging around Hyrule while Ganondorf is ruling it (or killed).

Also contradictory:

"One day, a gateway to the Golden Land of the Triforce was accidentally discovered and opened by a band of thieves skilled in dark magic and their leader, a man named Ganondorf."

Ganondorf wasn't a leader of a band of thieves in OoT, but an advisor to the king. Also Ganondorf in OoT never accidentally opened a gate to the Sacred Realm, he waited for Link to open it for him.

"A long running battle then ensued between Ganondorf and his followers to the heart of the Sacred Realm in a race to reach the Triforce first. Ganondorf fought his way past and killed all of his followers that had accompanied him into the realm along the way so that he could claim it uncontested."

Ganondorf didn't have any "followers" in OoT, though you could argue this refers to the Gerudo and perhaps they followed him into the Sacred Realm when he entered it.

This part however is a DEFINITE contradiction:

"After the murders of his followers, Ganondorf stood over the Triforce and grasped it with blood-stained hands. A voice whispered to him, stating that if he had a strong desire in his heart to wish for it. In response, Ganondorf's laughter echoed across time and space and reached even Hyrule itself as he made a wish that he become the ruler of the world. This event would come to be known as the Great Cataclysm.
Thus, it was out of the Great Cataclysm that one of Hyrule's greatest threats was born: the King of Evil, Ganon, who now had the strength of the Triforce at his command."

In OoT, Ganondorf never had the strength of the Triforce at his command. It split when he touched it, and he only got one piece. That's why he was searching for Link and Zelda, so he could kill them and claim the other two pieces and have the full power of the Triforce. In LttP, Ganondorf always had the united Triforce, and you claim the united Triforce when you defeat him. How could he have gotten the other two pieces if the Imprisoning War was OoT? He failed to obtain Wisdom and Courage in that game.

This is perhaps the most damning piece of evidence though:

"Finally, with his army now ready, Ganon launched the invasion against Hyrule, intending to fulfill his wish to be the ruler of both the Dark World and the Light World. Ganon's army swarmed from the Dark World and flooded into Hyrule, causing mass chaos and attacking Hyrule Castle. Meanwhile, the Seven Sages searched for a courageous individual that could take up a weapon that had been crafted to combat magic as powerful as that of the Triforce's, a sword that could banish evil itself, the Master Sword. However, no hero worthy of the blade could be found."

One, the Seven Sages weren't awakened until seven years after Ganondorf succeeded in conquering Hyrule in OoT. The Imprisoning War states the Seven Sages were already awake and looking for a hero who could hold the Master Sword, but none could be found. This contradicts OoT's events where a Hero WAS found, Link, the Hero of Time.

"The King of Hyrule eventually convened the council of the Seven Sages as well as the Knights of Hyrule that served to protect the Hylian royalty and commanded them to seal the gateway to the Dark World shut in order to stem Ganon's invasion of the kingdom. Both groups would play pivotal roles in the hope of reaching this goal, with the Seven Sages bearing the responsibility of creating the seal itself while the Knights of Hyrule would protect them as they did their part to halt Ganon's invasion of the kingdom"

Again, nothing even remotely close to this happened in OoT. There were no Knights of Hyrule anywhere in the game's events. You also can't argue that these events took place while Link was sealed, because...

"The Knights of Hyrule took the full brunt of the attack from Ganon's monsters, and while they fought courageously to the end, they were nearly wiped out entirely as they did their duty. Their lives were not lost in vain however, as they bought the necessary time for the Seven Sages to create their seal, trapping Ganon in the Dark World and halting the invasion."

So yeah. The Imprisoning War can't possibly be Ocarina of Time, for many of the reasons stated. We also have the problem that Ganon could not figure out a way to return to the Light World from the Dark World according to LttP, but Ganondorf appears in Wind Waker, which clearly takes place after OoT and (arguably) before LttP, meaning he would have known a way to return.

Finally...

"As indicated by deleted text in Four Swords Adventures, the original concept for that game would have included elements which might have made it the game in which the Imprisoning War occurred. Deleted text talks of Link not being able to wield the Master Sword, and more explicit references to the Hylians."

[Midori]

There is indeed not much reason to place LttP before LoZ, so I wouldn't be averse to placing it after AoL. But that has little to do with the relationship between LttP and OoT.

I have actually thought before about the contradictions you've brought up, including the apparent absence of the Knights of Hyrule in OoT (except possibly during the seven years, when Ganondorf was taking over Hyrule), and the fact that even if the Triforce was somehow sealed in the Sacred Realm with Ganon (which is not impossible), there's no reason it would take him hundreds or thousands of years to finally get influence out by controlling Agahnim. However, I also have never doubted that the plot of OoT was intended by Miyamoto to be, or at least mirror, the story of the Imprisoning War.

And this is where our differing philosophies on how to join the games comes into play. In putting the games in the same timeline, my goal is to bring the games as close together as possible, with as little extra baggage as possible, while allowing some inconsistencies in the text (which I can often discard as being mutations of the stories as told over the centuries). I can also respect your method of placing the games in the same timeline(s), where you try to remove as many inconsistencies as possible through any means. The reason I do not use your contradiction-free method of joining the games is because every time it settles a contradiction, it has to pull the games apart from one another by eliminating connections; for example, saying that each set of seven sages is unrelated, or that there are multiple timelines, or that two wars and people that seem similar are in fact different. I think that if the games are so seperated, then there is little point in trying to bring them into the same universe in the first place.

And in truth, that's closer to the real world situation anyway. Miyamoto designed each of the games first and foremost to be a good game in itself, and to have its own unique feel and story. Connections between the games were a secondary concern. OoT is clearly based on the Imprisoning War, but he made changes to the plot in the light of making OoT a better game, because an all-out epic war makes an excellent backstory, but a terrible adventure game. Putting all the games in the same universe is kind of an unrealistic fantasy no matter which way you do it, and you generally have to bend the text or the plots of the games in order to do it. Either that or you have to seperate all the games to the point that almost every connection between them is a coincidence, such as having five unrelated Links, five or six Zeldas, three sets of seven sages, and perhaps two or three Ganons. I've seen some theories that have multiple Master Swords even. Some of those coincidences are granted by every timeline theory, of course, but if you put the games in the same universe you have to either be contradiction-heavy or coincidence-heavy. I've chosen contradiction-heavy. You've chosen coincidence-heavy. In the end, after you've removed all the contradictions, do you have any real non-coincidental connections left between the games besides geography/character names, the Master Sword and Triforce, and the stained glass windows in WW?