Super Smash Brothers Brawl

[uc pseudonym]

I don't follow the Smash Brothers page, but I have to check it occasionally when you guys discuss what seems to be an exceptionally interesting development. Siege Castle was such a development. This is definitely the type of level that I enjoy.

[Nate]

I'm still wondering why everyone thinks Ike is going to replace Marth/Roy. Because we all know it's impossible for more than one character from a franchise to appear in this game, right?

Seriously though, Ike is likely a replacement for Roy, but Marth is going to stay, I'd guarantee it.

[Fish and Chips]

I'm still wondering why everyone thinks Ike is going to replace Marth/Roy. Because we all know it's impossible for more than one character from a franchise to appear in this game, right?

Seriously though, Ike is likely a replacement for Roy, but Marth is going to stay, I'd guarantee it.

Well, going with the theory that they're cutting characters (and they are), with clones first on the list, I assumed he'd be the honorary Fire Emblem Character, though they will probably keep the other character.

[Raiden no Kishi]

I'm liking this Ike fellow. A lot. I also hope they keep Marth, because I like Marth. However, I may end up preferring Ike's fighting style, since it's likely to be more of a straight-forward power-based style, rather than Marth's fencing-ish technique-based swordplay.

Also, I would sell my fourteenth-born for Ike's gloves. Any takers?

.rai//

[Alexander]

Well, going with the theory that they're cutting characters (and they are), with clones first on the list, I assumed he'd be the honorary Fire Emblem Character, though they will probably keep the other character.

I actually think that's what might happen to all the characters being cut: The clones. And in fact, with Ike here, it might seem that all the clones are getting "replaced" if I might add. Personally, with the exception of some characters from SSBM (Ganondorf, Young Link) I think this would be the best win-win strategy for clone users and those who didn't want them.

EDIT!!!!!!!

New Update: The Subspace Emissary.

I think the fanboy in me just died.

Oh and Peach is back!

[firestorm]

As with everone here I agree that Ike was a cool addition. But I'm just wondering why it's taking so long for Snake to come back out. Are they still working on him? And with the time left is there any way we can still have some say in the characters involved? And here is another question. Ifn Zero Suit Samus Supposed to result from Samus Using her Final Smash. Why is it that they make it look as though they are 2 separate characters on the character page? Why not just update Samus ' page instead of putting under the newcomer section?

I'm really hoping for Goemon or Susuki Samurai, Geno, and Little Mac to be in there or at least one of them. Those would be interesting surprises I think.

[Mr. SmartyPants]

Trust me guys, they will NOT take out Marth. Like I said, taking out Marth is exactly like taking out Fox. In competitive gameplay, both characters are Top-Tier characters, and taking out Marth will cause incredible uproad in the SSB community. I am 100% sure that they will not take out Marth.

Roy on the other hand... most competitive players always prefer Marth over Roy, so I'm going to assume that if they take Roy out (Seeing as he's a "slow" clone of Marth), then Ike will replace him.

As with everone here I agree that Ike was a cool addition. But I'm just wondering why it's taking so long for Snake to come back out. Are they still working on him? And with the time left is there any way we can still have some say in the characters involved? And here is another question. Ifn Zero Suit Samus Supposed to result from Samus Using her Final Smash. Why is it that they make it look as though they are 2 separate characters on the character page? Why not just update Samus ' page instead of putting under the newcomer section?

Since there's so much junk in SSB:B, they figure they can slowly release tidbit if information on a daily basis. Snake also appeared in the video, so he's confirmed.

They also had screenshots of Samus loosing her armor via Final Smash. They're not two separate characters. They probably did that simply as an advertising method.

[firestorm]

Since there's so much junk in SSB:B, they figure they can slowly release tidbit if information on a daily basis. Snake also appeared in the video, so he's confirmed.

That's true, but i'm just wondering why he and Metaknight haven't been put up on the new characters page yet. Maybe they are still working on their move sets?

[Mr. SmartyPants]

That's true, but i'm just wondering why he and Metaknight haven't been put up on the new characters page yet. Maybe they are still working on their move sets?

Because they don't want to? Just because they're not on the site doesn't mean they aren't confirmed. That and it builds up hype.

[Alexander]

*shakes stick arms*

HAS NO ONE NOTICED THE NEW UPDATE!?!?!

NINTENDO FANBOY ATTACK +3!

KYAAA!

http://www.smashbros.com/en_us/gamemode/modea/modea02.html

[AsianBlossom]

I saw it...looks awesome.

BTW, I think Sonic's chances of being in Brawl have seriously jumped. They say that Mario and Sonic at the Olympic Game will be the very first game to feature both Mario and Sonic in the same video game together as playable characters. Naturally, this was sad news for me, seeing as the two games had to come out around the same time. Well, I recently got to preorder Mario & Sonic, and found out that the release date...


...is apparently November 1st.

Thus, SSBB can be the SECOND video game in which Mario and Sonic appear together. After all, this game was said to be a "fanboy's dream" I think. But this definitely includes fangirls *dances*

EDIT: Scratch that, GameStop's website says it's the 20th. But still, it's before Brawl. *dances some more*

[uc pseudonym]

SSB has always been about multiplayer, but... I'll admit I'm highly partial to single player mode. A more advanced one sounds good to me. Really, with the amount of money they have and the size of next-gen discs, they have no reason not to include both.

[Fish and Chips]

Concerning the debate about whether or not Roy or Marth gets voted off the island, I figure Nintendo will keep one and remove the other, considering they are clones of one another.

As for Subspace Emissary, if they can fit all that in, rock on.

[Felix]

The Subspace Emissary looks awesome! =o Who is that in the screenshot with Pit? Any ideas?


Anyway, I agree that Marth is more likely to stay than Roy, but I think it's entirely possible that they both get cut. It's hard to say exactly what Ike's style will be like at this point, but it's a good bet that it will be similar to Marth/Roy's.

And why do people say that Roy is a clone of Marth? Marth could just as readily be a clone of Roy. And a lot of people (myself included) happen to prefer Roy over Marth, so there's no way to be sure as to which of them will be included.

If they include another Fire Emblem character, I find it more likely that it's the black knight. Marth AND Roy are probably far too similar to Ike to be included. Plus, this is a NEW Super Smash Bros. game. The only way it will be a truly worthy successor is if they cut the extra character and make way for new, better characters.

[firestorm]

I just saw the little movie for the Subspace Emissary and I must say it is interesting, and the fact that it says that this is going to be centered on charater development I think this little game will be pretty epic. Maybe not rpg epic, but there will definitely be more story than your average fighting game.

XD can't wait! XD

[Fish and Chips]

The Subspace Emissary looks awesome! =o Who is that in the screenshot with Pit? Any ideas?

In the original Kid Icarus, Pit is an angel in the service of Palutena, the goddess of light, against Medusa (goddess of darkness. Natch'.) And considering our lady friend here is all sparkly, bright, and translucent, my money's on Pit's patron diety, Palutena.

[AsianBlossom]

Good guess. I'm seconding your motion.

Anyone going to third it?

[Felix]

Okay, that's what I was thinking, but I wasn't sure, and I couldn't remember her name anyway. Thanks for clearing that up ^^/

[Alexander]

Good guess. I'm seconding your motion.

Anyone going to third it?

Thirded. I knew it from the moment I saw it. XD

Squee! I suddenly have this devious idea for some sort of romantic plot-line to be included with a famous character dying to save their love! (It could happen)

[Felix]

^^; Well I would say that the game looks a lot more... I don't know if "adult" is the right word, but with the inclusion of Zero-suit Samus and a very refined looking Zelda and Snake and Ike it definitely has a more mature feel to it. Heck, even Mario looks mature.

And from the screenshots, the CG cutscenes look pretty epic ^_^ I can't wait!

[Mr. SmartyPants]

Anyway, I agree that Marth is more likely to stay than Roy, but I think it's entirely possible that they both get cut. It's hard to say exactly what Ike's style will be like at this point, but it's a good bet that it will be similar to Marth/Roy's.

And why do people say that Roy is a clone of Marth? Marth could just as readily be a clone of Roy. And a lot of people (myself included) happen to prefer Roy over Marth, so there's no way to be sure as to which of them will be included.

If they include another Fire Emblem character, I find it more likely that it's the black knight. Marth AND Roy are probably far too similar to Ike to be included. Plus, this is a NEW Super Smash Bros. game. The only way it will be a truly worthy successor is if they cut the extra character and make way for new, better characters. Kapeesh?

With all due respect, I don't think you fully understand both Roy and Marth.

I will say it again. Taking out Marth is literally just as bad as taking out Fox. Both are top-tier characters in competitive gameplay, and they are used the most among players. Roy is not Top-Tier, and he is rarely used (Even less than Jigglypuff). Why is he rarely used in competitive gameplay? I'll get to that in a second.

Unless Ike is practically identical to Marth (Or what Marth would be) in terms of movesets, speed, range, and power, there will be MAJOR backlash from the SSB communities if Ike replaces Marth. Even so, people will feel uncomfortable playing "Marth" that does not look like Marth. Not to mention that you have NO definitive proof that Ike will be even remotely similar to Roy/Marth, besides the fact that he wields a sword. I personally feel that he will feature a totally new style.

It is true that Marth and Roy are considered clones of each other (Seeing as they both emerged from the same game, I figure it would be the most appropriate to say that they are clones of each other). However, this is only because of their similar moveset. So why don't they take out characters like Falco? Young Link? Ganondorf Dr. Mario? That is because Dr. Mario, Luigi, Ganondorf (Who I assume will have a new moveset) Young Link, Falco, and even Pichu have some advantages that their counterparts do not have. Roy has no advantages and is a sucky fighter. Now will they take out any other "clones"? It's possible for that to happen, though I highly doubt it.

If you prefer Roy over Marth, then you are the minority. Most well-seasoned competitive players generally prefer Marth over Roy. Differences in playing style? That's only partially true when you compare Marth to Roy. In almost every single aspect, Marth is superior. That is why I am 99.99%]URL[/url]. Let the facts sink in for a while. XD

[Felix]

With all due respect, I don't think you fully understand both Roy and Marth.

I will say it again. Taking out Marth is literally just as bad as taking out Fox. Both are top-tier characters in competitive gameplay, and they are used the most among players. Roy is not Top-Tier, and he is rarely used (Even less than Jigglypuff). Why is he rarely used in competitive gameplay? I'll get to that in a second.

Unless Ike is practically identical to Marth (Or what Marth would be) in terms of movesets, speed, range, and power, there will be MAJOR backlash from the SSB communities if Ike replaces Marth. Even so, people will feel uncomfortable playing "Marth" that does not look like Marth. Not to mention that you have NO definitive proof that Ike will be even remotely similar to Roy/Marth, besides the fact that he wields a sword. I personally feel that he will feature a totally new style.

It is true that Marth and Roy are considered clones of each other (Seeing as they both emerged from the same game, I figure it would be the most appropriate to say that they are clones of each other). However, this is only because of their similar moveset. So why don't they take out characters like Falco? Young Link? Ganondorf Dr. Mario? That is because Dr. Mario, Luigi, Ganondorf (Who I assume will have a new moveset) Young Link, Falco, and even Pichu have some advantages that their counterparts do not have. Roy has no advantages and is a sucky fighter. Now will they take out any other "clones"? It's possible for that to happen, though I highly doubt it.

If you prefer Roy over Marth, then you are the minority. Most well-seasoned competitive players generally prefer Marth over Roy. Differences in playing style? That's only partially true when you compare Marth to Roy. In almost every single aspect, Marth is superior. That is why I am 99.99% sure that Marth will be in Brawl and 80% sure that Roy will be taken out. Why would Nintendo take out two old characters and replace them with a new character that has a nearly identical moveset? That would be a pretty stupid thing to do. Face the facts: Nobody cares about Roy because he's a horrible Character. Everyone cares about Marth because he's an amazing character.

Don't believe me that Roy is worse than Marth? See for yourself: URL. Let the facts sink in for a while. XD

Thanks for correcting me. You're absolutely right, I didn't fully understand Roy and Marth. I don't happen to play as either of them very often, so in my limited experience I must prefer to play as Roy because I find him more fun (and I like trying to hit people with his charged attack)

So you're right, now that I see it that way, Marth will very likely be included in Brawl. (though just because a character is popular in a game doesn't necessarily 100% garuntee that he will be in the sequel. It is a new game after all, and there will be new competitions that won't be Melee competitions, so things could be quite different.)

Just out of curiosity, which characters are considered 1st and 2nd best if Marth is third? I could probably go find out myself, but I'm too lazy.


Also, though I know it's doubtful, I think it would be cool of Palutena became a playable character. She's shown in the screenshot of what I'm assuming is an intro movie, and if they're including one Kid Icarus character... why not more? And the game needs more female characters, anyway.

And... I think Skull Kid would make a good character.

[Cognitive Gear]

I will say it again. Taking out Marth is literally just as bad as taking out Fox. Both are top-tier characters in competitive gameplay, and they are used the most among players. Roy is not Top-Tier, and he is rarely used (Even less than Jigglypuff). Why is he rarely used in competitive gameplay? I'll get to that in a second.

There is a problem with this logic. If they wanted to avoid uproar in the Smash Community, they would not have made such drastic changes to the characters who were Top-Teir in SSB. Ness, Kirby, and Pikachu were all Top-Tier characters in SSB, yet in SSBM they are all Low Tier or Bottom Tier.

When SSBM came out, there were many people upset about the changes to these characters. However, as time went on, people discovered new characters to love, and everyone moved on.

I really don't think that the opinions of the Smash Community have anything to do with their decisions. If it did, they wouldn't be removing any characters but Pichu. :p

For those interested, here is the current "Tier List"

Top Tier:
Fox
Falco

High Tier:
Sheik
Marth
Peach

Middle Tier:
Captain Falcon
Ice Climbers
Samus
Doctor Mario
Jigglypuff
Mario
Ganondorf

Low Tier:
Link
Luigi
Donkey Kong
Roy
Young Link
Pikachu

Bottom Tier:
Yoshi
Zelda
Mr. Game and Watch
Ness
Bowser
Kirby
Pichu
Mewtwo

[Mr. SmartyPants]

There is a problem with this logic. If they wanted to avoid uproar in the Smash Community, they would not have made such drastic changes to the characters who were Top-Teir in SSB. Ness, Kirby, and Pikachu were all Top-Tier characters in SSB, yet in SSBM they are all Low Tier or Bottom Tier.

When SSBM came out, there were many people upset about the changes to these characters. However, as time went on, people discovered new characters to love, and everyone moved on.

I really don't think that the opinions of the Smash Community have anything to do with their decisions. If it did, they wouldn't be removing any characters but Pichu. :p

You do have a point here. The only thing that I can imagine is that SSBM may have had a much larger fanbase and a much larger competitive circle than SSB had. Perhaps Nintendo felt that Ness, Kirby, and Pikachu were overpowered in SSB, and they toned them down? (Much like Samus) I do see a balance in characters in SSBM, but I'm no analyst.

If they do keep Roy, it might be interesting if they actually went forth and changed his moveset (Much like what I hope they will do with Ganondorf) That would be rather interesting. As for Pichu, yeah he actually sort of sucks. Some people like him for his speed... but other than that... he's got nothing.

[Felix]

<.< I like Pichu... and I'm pretty good with him, if I can say so without sounding like a braggart.

C-Gear is right, though. That's something I was thinking myself. This is a new game, so trying to appeal to fans of the old game will make it far too much like the old game. Halo 2 is virtually identical to Halo because Bungie listened to the fans and cranked out more of the same. To be a truly worthy sequel, however, there must be changes, and good ones at that. People might get mad if certain characters are left out, but if those characters being cut makes room for more and different characters, people will find new characters to love.

Also, who decides the tier thing? Popular vote? A lot of the characters on the low or bottom tier are just as good to me as those near the top. It really all depends on who's using them. Any character can be far better than another character depending on who is using him/her. For instance, I can't use Fox or Falco to save my life, but I can use Yoshi and kick someone's butt who's playing as Marth.

[Alexander]

*notices the in-depth conversation*

*shakes cane* "Back in my day, we only played as Link because we thought he was cool! All this talk about move sets and advance tactics never entered our minds ya wipper snappers!"

XD

Actually, I do applaud the people who do so much research on Smash and learning advanced moves. It makes tournaments all that more amazing to watch.

But I personally just follow the simple philosophy of, "the best character in Smash is the character you work the best with". Fox and Sheik are considered the best in Melee, but I'm personally no good with either. Marth has always been my strongest character, and I basically just worked on perfecting myself with him. And I would say to any other smashers to do the same. Play with who you're best with.

[Felix]

Amen there, Alexander ^^/ Well said. I'm best with Young Link, and he happens to be a "low tier" character.

[Mr. SmartyPants]

Nobody ever said that you can't be good with a Low-Tier character. I've seen god-like players who specialize in some low-tier characters. It's just that some of them (Namely Roy) are not as good in comparison to the counterpart (From an objective standpoint). If you're good with Roy, you could be a whole lot better with Marth.

[Nate]

But I personally just follow the simple philosophy of, "the best character in Smash is the character you work the best with".

The problem is, that isn't true.

That's like saying a Buick station wagon could beat a Formula One racing car, if it's what you've always driven your whole life. The fact is, no, it couldn't. Characters have different movesets and statistics that clearly make some characters superior to others. That's how it works. Not all characters are "equally as good." Some characters are far superior to others.

Does that mean that lower-tier characters are worthless? Nope, it doesn't. You can play a character that you really like, and you can be really good with a crappy character. But that isn't the point. There are characters in Smash Bros. that are simply better than others, in every way, period, disregarding who you work best with.

Can you beat a high-tier character with a low-tier character? Yeah, if the guy playing the high-tier character really sucks. So in a way, yes, the skill levels of the players are (somewhat) relevant...but the fact remains if you had two players of equal skill, one playing Marth, and one playing Roy, Marth would win, ALWAYS.

Also, who decides the tier thing? Popular vote?

No, tiers are based on a lot of things, including basic damage per attack, ability to combo, ability to edgeguard, ability to throw, ability to juggle, recovery, fall speed, etc. In all these respects, Fox, Falco, Marth, and the like in Melee are simply better, in every way, than the other characters.

If you like using a weaker character, no shame in that! I like playing Kirby and Pikachu, and as you can see from the tier list, they're pretty low on the rankings. The thing is, I like those characters. But the fact remains that they're still weak characters, and if I were to play competitively, I could never win against the likes of similarly skilled players who used one of the higher tier characters. That's just how the game works. To say "the best character is the one you're best with" really displays a lack of understanding as to how Smash Bros. works, no offense.

At any rate, this all leads me to my final conclusion. While Marth was the slower heavier hitter out of him and Roy, I have a feeling Nintendo will keep Marth and make him a bit faster, and Ike will play the role of the heavy hitter...remember, Ike has a two-handed sword which traditionally means slow and hard-hitting. I can't see them getting rid of both characters; especially with there now being a Fire Emblem themed stage, it seems they are working to actively INCREASE the Fire Emblem presence, not decrease it, and having only one character would fail to do that.

[Felix]

That's like saying a Buick station wagon could beat a Formula One racing car, if it's what you've always driven your whole life. The fact is, no, it couldn't.

It could if the guy behind the wheel of the Formula One drove it into a wall

Anyway, that does make sense. I agree that if you pit two equally skilled players against each other and one is using Falco and the other is using Donkey Kong, Falco will most likely win (though a variety of variables could still change that)

But I do believe that a player's personal skill with a character makes a big difference. Like you said, someone who has played with a low tier character their whole life could easily beat someone who was playing with a top tier character for the first or second time.

And your Fire Emblem conclusion makes sense. I'm becoming convinced as well that Marth will be included, and Roy probably won't. Perhaps they'll include another Fire Emblem character or two, even.