CAA: Christian Anime Alliance

Whats all of your opinons on fighting, guys, girls.

Fighting physically?

Well, personally I will defend myself--and others--with everything got if the situation calls for it (life on line, etc). I'm not quite what you can call a pacifist... ^^;;; My own opinions on fighting would be on the lines of "push me too far and I'll make sure you go down with me". And sometimes seeing the bad guys in pain gives me a sense of satisfaction.

But arrggghh, I really need to start living my life with the #1 believer guideline: WWJD. XD

no one touches me simply because everyone in my grade knows i can produce weapons such as rocket launchers, coilguns, tazers, portable power-kniv... wait, i meant that i can do wresting moves

as for fighting itself, my only opinion is to try to avoid it.

*mumbles*...just wait until i'm rich enough to make a railgun...*mumble*

you didn't hear that.

Fighting mean people only places you on their level, and wanting revenge only gives someone all the more control over the situation.

Ignore them, or better yet be nice to them. -^.^-

If they're really physically harming you, then inform a teacher, their parents, or even the police if you have to go to that extent. No one should be physically abused.

I know this probably didn't help much, but don't get caught up in fighting.

Fights can escalate extremely fast (one day's fistfight or profanity exchange can be the next day's shootout with the easy availability of weapons in some places).

Fights rarely solve anything (because the person you fight only wants to get revenge on you if you win, and you only want a rematch if you lose)

Fights are basically pointless because there's other ways around the matter (such as avoiding your tormentors, letting someone else deal with it, ignoring insults, etc.)

Fights often can get people involved hurt, and sometimes seriously so (i.e. blindness, broken bones, internal injuries, and even death can result from a "simple fistfight")

Fighting can get you in trouble with school authorities or even thrown in jail (i.e. many schools have a "zero tolerance" policy and even "self-defense" can get you expelled, ESPECIALLY if anything so much as resembling a weapon is involved. Technically according to most legal statutes, mutual combat is assault and battery, and if one party is seriously injured or dies, then the stakes go much, much higher.)

Basically, the point is keep your cool. Don't let someone else make you do something you will regret forever.

Fighting normaly dosnt get you anywhere and bprobely never will. Most fighting IS pointless as asomeone else already stated. but yes You sould Defend yourself on the account that somone takes a swing at at you. But What if you just get pushed to far without fist swinging takeing place? Then you start it, oh by the dose anyone think that its screwed up that the one being provoked into fighting gets in trouble(Minor stuff or going to juvi or somthing) and the one who caused it gets to walk?

My philosophy is basically the same as most of you guys. Avoid it whenever possible but defend yourself if necessary.

Personally: I would only fight if I knew myself or someone else was in danger.

Fighting does solve problems. (It's deffinentley not the right way to solve problems) If you beat the snot out somebody 'cause you want the last burrito: there, problem solved. However, you go to jail, get sued, etc. But that person will never again take the last burrito.

Yeah, fighting in anime is pretty interesting -^.^- however fighting in real life is dangerous, stupid, and a sin. -^.^-

I'd say there's a difference between defensive and offensive fighting. You can defend yourself and others without attacking the person, perhaps maybe you might have to pin them to the ground, or something like that, but you don't need to beat them.

Picture this scene:

The hero has been flayed, nearly to his death. His enemies are using a cruel flail, a cross between a cat 'o nine tails and a mace. His back is cut entirely open, he bleeds freely. They're forcing him to climb a hill, a heavy wooden plank across his back. The enemy's soldiers are laughing at him, despising his plight. Suddenly, he shatters his bonds, throws off the plank, free. Instantly the guards descend upon him. Fists flashing with controlled fury, he disarms them all painlessly. In a flash, he leaps over their heads, and he's off. Look, up in the sky! It's a bird, it's a plane, it's Ninja Jesus!

Was that overboard? Perhaps. I'll admit I am coming to this discussion from a pacifist standpoint. Like everyone else, I agree that offensive fighting is wrong. I'd hope none of us argue that one. But I'm afraid my position will be different regarding defensive fighting.

Essentially, I believe that violence is not essentially wrong. However, because fighting will always involve people, what it does to them is sin. So despite its inherent nature, Christians shouldn't do it. But self-defense is, of course, a different matter.

Jesus was the person most worthy of defending himself. He was without sin. As God, He alone has the right to destroy that which He had created. For God it isn't sin. But Jesus didn't do that, and neither did 10 other disciples after his ressurection.

The call of Jesus has never been one that will make sense on this physical world. In this fallen world, we may well be destroyed for the beliefs we carry. But like I said, it isn't about that.

St. Peter wrote:Fighting....

Don't start it, but be prepared for it. Because this world will always have its jerks.

I basically agree with that. It's one of the main reasons I am taking karate -- I'd like to be able to defend myself should the need arise. There exist psychos in this world who attack other people unprovoked, and I will not be an easy target. But neither will I start a fight just because I can, nor respond to verbal insults with physical violence. That's just stupid, and displays a pathetic lack of self-discipline (not to mention self-confidence).

As for uc's comments... I agree, to an extent. Where faith is concerned, it doesn't really make sense to fight. But as for Jesus... He did what had to be done. If He hadn't let Himself be crucified, we'd all be in a world of trouble. I don't think His actions mean that we are never to defend ourselves if someone is trying to kill us unjustly.

Well, without becoming argumentative, I'd like to point out that Jesus isn't the sole example. We have the disciples, and Steven, etc. etc.

I mean, if it came down to a situation where it was your life or another person's, what would you do?

The Martyrs died for their faith. They were killed because they believed in Christ, and would not back down. I pray that were I in a similar situation, I would do the same.

But if some psycho comes after me or my family with the intent to harm or kill, you bet I would do what I could to stop him. I have no qualms about crippling or even killing someone whose sole intention is to rape and/or kill me. I have a lot to live for, and chances are high that if this guy kills me and goes free, he'll kill someone else as well. If my thinking is wrong, may God convict me.

<But yeah stuff like fist fighting is just stupid and doesnt solve the problem, just creates more anger.>

Oh I dunno, Bare-knucks' does have it's moments. (Then again I've taken so many blows to my head. )

Wolf your right. What's that Bible passage that speaks about that? It's in the OT. I'll tell you if I find it.

I think I agree with you, UC, for defending myself, but to protect someone else, I think I would have to use violence if I had no other choice.

I would say do your very best not to have to fight. I have taken many hits before, but didn't fight and it ended right there. (you know it was harder to not fight back than to fight and be beaten to a pulp. you have to be strong because it can be very humbling.. embarrassing to look weak). still, now years later, looking back on it i am glad i let it pass. most of the time it won't have an effect on the people, but one of the guys... well, the way i handled it did affect him. he couldn't understand why i acted how i did and we got along better after that. so it can even be a good witness in how you handle yourself.
I think it would be hardest for me not to defend one of my friends or family. I think we should defend the weak. I can take hits, no big deal, but for someone to try and hurt someone weaker. Thats where i will come in and do my best to stop the situation. (and Again, try to do it without violence).
Also, as i continue to learn more and more martial arts, i think it gets easier to end stuff without hurting someone too much. Aikido is a great one with all the joint locks. you can end something without having to do serious damage.
And Jesus was all about peace and love, but when He comes back as the Warrior-King He is gonna whip a lot of people and quick. so you know... think about that. but i say go for peace and love, reflect the love of Christ.

All I gotta say is....Jesus Fights My Battles!!! But when I feel like beating someone I remember this, We fight not against flesh and blood but against powers and pricipalities and spiritual wickedness in high places! But I think protecting yourself is different from beating someone because your mad.

I haven't been in a fight since High School. I really don't think physical fighting is necessary unless you're defending yourself. There are times when physical inflictions are necessary when bullies have berated and treated you horribly for too long... I slapped someone in the face because he had been very mean for the four years I knew him, and every time I tried to be rational he didn't listen... he caused no more trouble for me since that day.
I really don't reccomend that people do this, though... try to break up a disagreement or something rationally.... I hit this boy because I was bullied for four years, without school staff doing anything about it. :S That was about six years ago anyway- I'm scarcely inclined to get in fights.

Well, I'm not going to try to impose anything upon you people. The one area I still don't have worked out in my own mind is fighting to defend other people. It makes sense to me roughly, but it isn't that simple. I mean, there are other sins which can do good for other people, and we all know about the difference between ends and means. Which means I'm just confused, and have little more to say here.

EireWolf wrote:The Martyrs died for their faith. They were killed because they believed in Christ, and would not back down. I pray that were I in a similar situation, I would do the same.

A very good point, but I guess this is where we part, philisophically. In my hermaneutic, I say that any time someone threatens me, my belief in Christ is being questioned. Off-the-cuff, Job. Obviously, his beliefs (in God, since Jesus wasn't around yet) were being questioned (as the first chapter kind of points out), yet it had nothing to do with having a weapon put to his head and being asked if he recanted his faith.

EireWolf wrote:I have no qualms about crippling or even killing someone whose sole intention is to rape and/or kill me.

While obviously it's easy for me to say this, that strikes me as going a bit far. To be honest, I'm not sure what I'd do in a situation like that. I mean, I know what I should do, but that doesn't mean I wouldn't actually do something else. I'm not sure I'd have the strength to not pull a rhetorical trigger. Still, though, it is going to boil down to "Whatever you do unto the least of these, my brothers, you do it unto me [italics mine]."

Can I give my opinion? Okay, I think if someone hits you, then you should hit them back, but it shouldn't grow into an all out brawl. I don't think there's anything wrong with defending yourself. You know that verse that says be as innocent as a dove but as cunning as a fox... or something like that. But I'm not really sure it would apply to this situation(?)...

uc pseudonym wrote:Well, I'm not going to try to impose anything upon you people. The one area I still don't have worked out in my own mind is fighting to defend other people. It makes sense to me roughly, but it isn't that simple. I mean, there are other sins which can do good for other people, and we all know about the difference between ends and means. Which means I'm just confused, and have little more to say here.



A very good point, but I guess this is where we part, philisophically. In my hermaneutic, I say that any time someone threatens me, my belief in Christ is being questioned. Off-the-cuff, Job. Obviously, his beliefs (in God, since Jesus wasn't around yet) were being questioned (as the first chapter kind of points out), yet it had nothing to do with having a weapon put to his head and being asked if he recanted his faith.



While obviously it's easy for me to say this, that strikes me as going a bit far. To be honest, I'm not sure what I'd do in a situation like that. I mean, I know what I should do, but that doesn't mean I wouldn't actually do something else. I'm not sure I'd have the strength to not pull a rhetorical trigger. Still, though, it is going to boil down to "Whatever you do unto the least of these, my brothers, you do it unto me [italics mine]."

-^.^- Although I'm not a Mennonite, I SO agree with you, so much that it's kind of scary. That had to be one of the best posts I've seen in a long while.

Well. THAT was an interesting thread. I'd say my opinion is pretty close to what the wolf had to say. (Makes sense, I guess.) As far as I can tell, the main opinions of everyone here boil down to:

1. Treat others with respect.
2. Don't pick fights.
3. Don't be goaded into fights.

We seem to part ways only when we ask: "If someone throws a punch at me, and I can block it, should I:

1. Block it?
2. Block it and hit them back?"

I would say block it. There isn't any real reason not to, IMHO. The question in my mind is, should I hit them back. At that point, it's a question of judging the other's intentions. If they have no intention of backing down, then I will regretabley have to render them incapable of hurting me. This can either be through a display of prowess that overawes them, or by hurting them to the point that they stop. In a perfect world, I would block a few punches/kicks and inform them that they better stop. If they didn't, pain them. Having never been in the situation where that was possible, I can't tell you what I would really do. But if their intent was to harm my wife, I don't think I would bother with the blocking nonsense. It would sorta change the rules. Darn that rage emotion.

Anyway, that's my $0.02.

Do you consider blocking a punch fighting, UC?

Well, I doubt I'd be fast enough or coordinated enough to do it. But I don't think it'd be fighting. For that matter, if someone was trying to shoot me, I'd do a Matrixesque back bend manuver, if I could.

Anyway. As I see it, that isn't fighting, it's just not getting hit. Fighting would be catching his fist and hurling him to the ground. It's the difference between being passive and fighting back.

Then again, I'm wavering even as I'm typing this. Passages such as our favorite "turn the other cheek" are coming to mind. If someone strikes you on one cheek, turn to him the other also. There is something somewhere that says "do not resist an evil person."

So I guess what I'm really saying is that I don't know.

Out of curiosity, UC, how far would you expand that statement? Would you advise a woman to let herself be raped, by that logic?

Would you advise Steven to let himself be stoned?

(I'm afraid I'm not really going to answer your question. All it does is make the issue a personal thing. And with Christianity, the issue is about what is right in God's eyes, not about anything personal)

Edit: Though in retrospect I do have more to say. Running is never out of the question. Same as punch dodging, at least sorta. Well, at least as sure as I am there.

But consider this: what if it came down to that or taking the other person's life? Ask yourself, what would you do in that situation?

I'm afraid I'm gonna have to side with the wolf on that one. A woman being raped will most likely not become a martyr. I think the martyrdom of various figures in Christianity was probably the right thing for them to do. If it came down to a question of reject Christ or dying, I would certainly hope I would chose death. On the other hand, if I came home and someone was trying to rape my wife and I had the open shot, I would most definately not hesitate to pull the proverbial trigger.

As you say, this becomes a question of what is right in God's eyes. But there are many schools of thought as to what that is exactly. And I would be remiss if I did not point out that I think it would be wise to not get started on that debate.

So.... how about those Dodgers?

Some weather we're having.

As far as Job is concerned, the issue was whether or not Job would curse God if he were attacked on all fronts. From Job chapter 1:

8 Then the LORD said to Satan, "Have you considered my servant Job? There is no one on earth like him; he is blameless and upright, a man who fears God and shuns evil."
9 "Does Job fear God for nothing?" Satan replied. 10 "Have you not put a hedge around him and his household and everything he has? You have blessed the work of his hands, so that his flocks and herds are spread throughout the land. 11 But stretch out your hand and strike everything he has, and he will surely curse you to your face."

I guess my point is that I am not renouncing God when I defend myself against a physical attacker. It's a completely separate issue.

In the parable of the sheep and the goats, look closely at the kind of person Jesus is talking about. ("Whatever you do unto the least of these, my brothers, you do it unto me.") He mentions being hungry, thirsty, a stranger, naked, sick, in prison... all of these things point to someone who is weak, underprivileged, the underdog, or otherwise in need of help. He is NOT talking about someone who is trying to dominate other people, as is the case with an attacker. The least of these, not the one who is trying to be the dominator. Obviously we are to help those in need, but this passage says nothing about self-defense, IMHO.

UC, I fully respect your pacifist stand. Your views on the subject are above reproach. I just happen to see things differently. It might be wrong for you to fight an attacker, because you believe strongly in pacifism. But I do not feel the same conviction regarding self defense or defense of others. If I should change my views on this, I pray that God will let me know. I guess I sort of compare it to "eating meat that's been offered to idols." It's wrong if you feel convicted about it; it's not wrong if you don't, but don't cause another to stumble by your actions.

So... yeah. It's been kinda' humid here, and pretty warm for the most part. Rained a few days ago. How are things in your neck o' the woods?

Well, the way I see it is this.

I do believe that defensive fighting is justified. Offensive fighting could possibly be justified in some situations. If you see someone else being attacked that I believe it is justified to go to their aid.

As for killing, I believe if there is anyway to avoid it, you should avoid it.
After all, all life is precious and even the worst person can reform. (The Military is an exception and yes I believe Christians can join the military) If you happen to be fighting a psychotic serial killer or someone similiar who has no qualms about killing anyone and might go on to kill 20 innocent people and there is no chance to simply disarm him and knock him out safely then yes, I believe killing him would be justified. Of course, that's a rather exaggerated situation and none of us will probably ever be put there.

There is also the fact that The USA probably wouldn't exist if not for Christians taking up arms. Most of the founding fathers were Christians or at least had a worldview that was similiar. And then there are examples in the Bible. King David was "a man after God's own heart" and yet he was a warrior.